Do you love Muhammad Ali? If so why so and if not why not?

Well get over it because its not. Even Chris agrees that Americans seem to love Dempsey.

Yes but you can't drop it.

Don't talk about telling someone multiple times. The womanizing isn't really how this discussion took place. I brought it up within a paragraph making a point that all champs were womanizers. I just said what I felt. I admit it was unnecessary but I don't hold back. I said I think there's a subtle dislike of Ali with you. You of course flipped out causing a huge rawkus because you can't take any bit of criticism or commentary regarding your opinions. It's like if you say I'm clear a biased Marciano fan. How the hell can I deny that? It's like me saying I think you favor Sonny Liston as a fighter. I think that's true, you rank him high and we all know your a Liston fan. That would be like you getting defensive about that and saying I'm truthful and your just an opinion spouting.

Lastly, comprehension 101. I seem to only have communication problems with you on this site.

The only point from above is B. The rest is a misinterpretation on your part. My opinion still stands because you take the bad reports on Ali and everything else is just a slanted book on him. The Ali autobiography was still the best read I had on the man. You can disagree I guess, but I value my ability to dissect his actual thoughts rather than what the other ten millions say on him. There reporting is important, though.

Right, the same goes about reading/watching about it.

How do you know this? Maybe my theory is out the door. I don't think so. Either way why would observation bother you so much? Want me to take a poll and record all the facts before I make a comment like that?

Right, it's about perspective. I'm saying that I believe Americans know our times better than Europeans do, naturally, so we have leniency on his legacy. You've just jumped to conclusions that I'm saying Europeans have an invalid opinion. You do this all the time, it doesn't make me look like an ass but you. I feel that non-Americans from what I've seen in general have less leniency and more of a tendency to be critical on his legacy. With good reasons, of course. No opinion is better than the other or more right. Both opinions are good in balance. Having said that, I do personally feel that when some people oversimplify things with their criticisms of Dempsey. Maybe I'm complicating things. Again, it's perspective. Naturally, you could say the same for the way Americans view the Klit brothers. Europeans (Especially Eastern ones) seem to think of him much highly and will probably rank him better than Americans. That is perspective.

See it's not that Europeans thoughts are invalid. It's more about how our opinion can be more favoring, whether it be more excuse than justified.

Yes, but it boils down to how much you study the fighter & fighter(s) rather than their culture and period. Non-Americans can be just as knowledgeable and exposed about American racial climate than Americans. What I've said can be largely an assumption. However, naturally we'll understand the times more first hand because it's been all around us. From history in schools, to opinions of writers, to experiences through others.

The question here is really. Do you think Americans are slightly more favorable on Dempsey? And do you think that non-Americans rate him as highly as Americans do. I think there's a different, not a major difference. If you think there's no correlation then my theory/observation goes out the window. On classic you see a hole lot less of this. This ain't general.

Fair enough.

The American's comment was more regarding the context. Naturally they would understand Vietnam 60's culture in America. I mean... my parents lived then and I see it on my TV much more than non-Americans would. It's not about non-Americans knowing more its about them being more exposed. The discussion began with me talking about the context of the times.

Right. It's better to gain information than to just criticize. With more information, you have a more balanced understanding to draw your conclusions on. People should talk all they want on the subjects, that's their prerogative. However, the ones who want to knock a fighter repeatedly should take a step back and look at the big picture. Judge slowly. Whether Ali it's far from a simple "racist" or not racist.

Anyway I'm done with this topic. It's gone so off point into some semantics/nationality argument. We'll just leave our differences behind and leave it at that.

 

I love Ali, because of his charisma, skills, and his fearlessness.However, he could make dumb statements, and his love of the extramarital pootang( something he shared with Frazier), brings him down a couple of notches.

 

Ali is one of the greatest fighters in the history of the sport, any weight class, no doubt. He was a beautiful athlete in his prime to watch even though his technique has hurt the generations after him who try to emulate him. Nobody has his reflexes, timing and foot speed, pound for pound. I can honestly say the closest athletes that can compare athletically to Ali are fighters Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather, and Michael Jordan, who's basketball skills and footwork mirror that in terms of Ali, but from a different sporting perspective. Dennis Rodman had great reflexes as well as a basketball player, but I don't think they compare to Ali. Barry Sanders and Deion Sanders can compare in terms of overall athletic speed and reflexes, but again from different sports.

Some say his ugly treatment of Frazier was to sell tickets but that's pure garbage as far as I'm concerned. Like I've said before, there's nothing positive, redeeming or encouraging when one black person calls another black person a Gorilla, and for that, Ali will always lose points as a person in my book. I don't think he intended to make the FOTC a race war, but his mouth made it for him by saying all the stuff about Frazier being the "white man's champion" and that blacks who supported Frazier are "Uncle Toms." If Ali really knew what an Uncle Tom was, using those words to describe the same black race who supported Frazier in the FOTC is cheap and racist. To a lesser extent, the same can be said about his "politely racist" confrontations with Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell, but then again, some say those fighters earned Ali's wrath in the ring for continuing to call him Clay.

I believe Ali really didn't know what he was getting into when he made the stand against the Viet Cong and the war in Viet Nam. Certainly the man was dead set against going to travel X many miles to have a gun put in his hand to fight for other peoples freedoms around the world, when during the 60's as a black man, he practically still wasn't free from Jim Crow. His advisors probably told him that him taking his stand against Viet Nam, not totally understanding the war itself, would be one of the greatest political and inspirational choices by a public figure.

He should have quit the game after Manilla. There was no need for him to fight Spinks, Holmes or Shavers for that matter.

 

AMEN! Mc. He liked *****, and lots of it...And the awful part of that is what?

 

It is quite a comment on the state of our society that there is even a discussion of the good and bad sides of Ali.

As far as I'm concerned the man was literally a genious inside the ring with as much heart as anyone you will see.

Outside of the ring he was obviously only concerned with himself, had absolutely no class what so ever. In fact he may be the most classless person that the public has seen reach the heights of stardom that he did. His words of hate and self promotion say everything for themselves as to what a loathsome individual he is.

Anything Ali ever said or did was solely to better himself and not others. He was the direct benefactor of other people's suffering due to his very own selfish actions.

The man (if you can call him that) is possibly the greatest fraud and myth of the 20th century that was built up by a degraded society that continues to haunt us today. The generation that built him up are now the ones in power, and we can all see where that has lead us.

It was during this generation that he lead the charge for people to behave in a way that is now commonplace. Most of the people posting in this thread grew up after Ali, when self promotion and boasting was common and not looked down upon. That is why you see the defense of this despicable man on this board to be so strong.