Does Julio Caesar Chavez make the Top 20 All-Time

:nono

Those 2 guys are top 5.

 

Sweet Pea


I know your not into heavyweights much Chris Pontius brought up a very good point to me last year when I did the same thing you did. Rocky Marciano in your list beat your # 6 twice, and your # 16 and # 17. Now say what you want about how old they were and past it, but theres no denying he beat them when they still were world class fighters. Facts still remain he is a combined 4-0 with 3 knockouts against those 3. Facts that are hard to look past.

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. Surely if you have charles at 6, louis 16 and moore 17, surely you could find a spot for the Rock in your top 33.

Thanx for listening



Ps There should be no reason to rate Whitaker above Pep. Pep cleaned out his era for 10 straight years and beat great fighters, while Whitaker did not and failed two fight the two best ligthweights of 1980s Rosario and Camacho. Pep should easily be in the top 5

 

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Sam Langford
6. Harry Greb
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Willie Pep
9. Roberto Duran
10. Archie Moore
11. Benny Leonard
12. Ray Leonard
13. Pernell Whitaker
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Jack Johnson
16. Joe Gans
17. Carlos Monzon
18. Barney Ross
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Jimmy Wilde
21. Mickey Walker
22. Sandy Saddler
23. Julio Cesar Chavez
24. Alexis Arguello
25. Rocky Marciano
26. Gene Tunney
27. Roy Jones Jr
28. Lennox Lewis
29. Evander Holyfield
30. Bernard Hopkins


i would say the gap between 21 and 22 is miles apart...

 

why is whitaker and alex arguello are so high up and based on accomplishment i wouldnt put roy jones that high either

 

Here is my top 30 Sweet Pea. Based on Accomplishments Head to Head and Historical Signifigance


1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Harry Greb
7. Roberto Duran
8. Joe Louis
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Archie Moore
11. Joe Gans
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Barney Ross
14. Ed Jofre
15. Rocky Marciano
16. Joe Walcott
17. Tony Canzoneri
18. Sandy Saddler
19. Kid Chocolate
20. Benny Leonard
21. Ike Williams
22. Emile Griffith
23. Pernell Whitaker
24. Alexis Arguello
25. Jack Dempsey
26. Manny Pacquiao
27. Carlos Monzon
28. Roy Jones
29. Jack Johnson
30. Bob Foster


* For any White Fighter pre 1960 to make my TOP 20, it only includes the ones who took the great black fighters of there era proving there was no color line.

 

No Barbados Demon, Eder Jofre or Emile Griffith in your top 30?

 

Kid Chocolate over Benny Leonard?

 

Certainly not anymore unreasonable than your Whitaker over Pep pick including leaving Pep out of the top 10. Also 185lb p4p Marciano out of ur top 33 can be considered very bizzare.


Chocolate rates in my top 2 greatest junior lightweights of all time. Benny Leonard has very good resume and historical Signifigance, but I do not rate him a top 3 lightweight of all time, I feel his style was too primitave and modern boxers like Ike Williams and Roberto Duran and even whitaker would pick him apart

 

SuzieQ why is Pacman so high? and if your taking about the colour line didn't Benny Leonard draw it? (I might be wrong but pretty sure) Anyway why no Mickey Walker?

 

I don't put Whitaker over Pep. I just say sensible things that deluded folk deny, like the past prime footage we have of Pep on film is not anywhere near as impressive as the footage we have of Whitaker.

Pep's actually in my top 10.

Marciano isn't in my top 33, but I would hardly consider that bizarre. I think it's more unusual to have him in your top 33, unless of course you are going by celebrity lists like the **** Espn and Burt Sugar do.

Being top 2 and 130 holds less significance in my eyes than being top 10 at 135, when you consider the calibre of fighters there.

Well, from what we've seen of Chocolate on film, he was picked apart by Tony Canzoneri, losing just about every round. He does have a modern looking style, but it's not as if he looks all that effective, which is really what should be considered. There's only a past prime bit of film on Leonard available, but he doesn't look inferior to Chocolate AT ALL. And as far as resumes and achievements go, there's no debate really.

 

That is why Benny Leonard no higher than # 20.


2ndly, Manny Pacquiao is where he should be. why should roy jones be higher than him? Pacman already has a much better resume than jones, fought the best man in his weightclass of his era unlike jones, and rates just as well h2h. Pacman has already beaten 2 great fighters near there prime JMM, and MAB back in 2003, and knocked out a still world class aging great(Morales) when no one ever did that before. not to mention all the other top ten contenders he has dominated over the years while he cleaned out his weight classes. Pacman has shown us all he has all the goods to be one of the greatest fighters whos ever lived...He has shown he has the heart of a champion overcoming adversity MANY times, he is by far one of the greatest all around punchers p4p we have ever seen, and he won his First World Title at 112lb Flyweight, and now continues to win world titles all the way up to 140lb. Incredible. Don't Forget even on his way up, Manny Pacman beat some very good fighters like Chatchai Sasakul, Lehlohonolo Ledwaba. I truelly believe Pacman has legendary punching skills, he has the finishing ability to put anyone away around his weightclass in history.

 

Sweet Scientist, please disregard most of my last post. I confused you with Sweet Pea.

“Through most of the fight (Chocolate) belted the champion with everything but the timekeepers gavel. His black arms pumped with precision and they carried a sting like the tail of a wasp,” wrote Richards Vidmer in the NY Herald-Tribune. “Only towards the finish did Canzoneri come with the speed and power that he has shown in the past. He staged a desperate rally after trailing far in the rear, and won the tenth, eleventh and twelfth sessions, but these were not enough to catch up with the Kid’s early advantage and the black shadow from Havana took two of the last three rounds to hold his lead.”


Chocolate on film impressed me. He was a flashy fighter who posssesed alot of speed and Skill. His natural ability was off the charts, and I thought he boxed very "cute" in the ring with his fantastic upperbody feints like jersey joe walcott. His footwork was very smooth and bouncy as well. His Jab shot out like a dart and was very elegant

I confused you with Sweet Pea. But while were on the subject, if you weigh 185lb and were undefeated champion and no other 185lber in history would beat you at your best, then its safe to say he deserves a top 33 spot.

Good Point, however Chocolate rates pretty highly at 126lb too which is Featherweight division, and that is loaded weight class. I tend to think Chocolate possess a much more modernly developed style than leonard.

 

griffith and jofre are top 35 ...but i feel jofre wasnt able to beat a hall of famer boxer other than saldivar who just comes out of retirement...i just think hopkins and jones have better accomplishment that griffith...barbados joe doesnt have a dominating run, he had losses in his primest prime. he is outside top 40 imo

 

The Walker Law changed the sport. If you don't feel it did, then fair enough. But I personally am becoming more and more sceptical with regard to the viability of comparing fighters from the 1890s and fighters from the 2000s on account of the differences in the sport they competed in.

 

Don't be curious, check out my rankings, the names are there.

I concur with you over Chavez's quality as a fighter, but I dont think he quite makes a top 20.

To say top 10 is ludicrous. Chavez's resume automatically precludes him from that status.