Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

How does my first point undo the second?

By the time Ezzard had 30 fights he had been in there with Burley, Bivins, Maxim, and Overlin. That's experience. He faced a name guy and former champ in his 15th fight, which is early but he was not quite "thrown to the wolves" in his 30th bout.

After he returned from the army his KD's did diminish but I think it more likely due to skills and maturity than someone reinforcing his chin with concrete.

Charles did not have a glass jaw and no one is saying that he did. He could be hurt, and he could get dropped and that is a plain fact, irregardless of those who go ballistic at any notion that he was a mere mortal. Manassa is wrong --thirty knockdowns is most assuredely not "just a statistic". It's something to consider in context, but it is also something that shouldn't wiped off as one would bird crap on a statue.

 

Skills? Charles had the skills pre-army to oubox Charley Burley - twice. In the army he put on muscle, gained strength all over (strength in his legs to carry him, general fortitude to not get pushed around etc.) and believe it or not, he became tougher mentally too. Everyone turns into a man when they join the army, even the women.

 

If that was the case, then the KDs would've returned when his skills started to diminish in the early 50s. But that didn't happen.

Again, how is a fighter with diminished skills/reflexes able to withstand clean, flush BOMBS from hitters like Marciano and Satterfield, if not for his chin?

 

I would just like to point out in interesting fact

Charles fought a total of :

Archie Moore 28 rounds- # 4 rated puncher by Ring Magazine all time

Elmer Ray 19 Rounds- Outweighed by 25lb. Ray # 44 Ring Magazine All time Puncher.

Joe Louis 15 Rounds- 6'2 218lb, outweighed by 36lb. # 1 rated puncher by Ring Magazine all time

Johnny Haynes 9 Rounds- 6'4 220lb, 22 kayoes out of 24 wins, one of the most feared punchers of the late 1940s.

Nino Valdez 10 Rounds- 6'3 212lb, # 1 ring magazine contender, one of the most feared punchers of the 1950s.

Rex Layne- 31 rounds- 6'1 200lb, top 10 Ring Magazine contender, packed a heavy right hand 73% knockout percentage

Rocky Marciano 15 rounds- # 12 Ring Magazine all time puncher.

Jersey Joe Walcott first 36 rounds- # 66 Ring Magazine all time puncher

Bob Satterfield 2 rounds(hell)- Ring Magazine top 100 puncher of all time




What do all these big punchers have in common? they went all those rounds with ezzard charles, and NONE of them floored Ezzard in that amount of time

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Yet mendoza claims charles has a weak chin???

 

Nice statistics Nick.

 

IMO It's most likely that Charles(and even more so Archie moore) simply had nondescript, fairly typical punch resistance as relates to world level at their weightclass.

Some good nights, some bad nights etc.

Of course in most other respects they were among the best ever.

 

I think Archie Moore had a high tolerance for pain but yes, only a decent chin. I mean, he could take a lot of clubbing punishment but there might be a good shot that'd slip through and deck him.

 

Its funny because archie did so well against the big men. his record against men over 200lb is something like 22-1(19 kayoes)!!! with the only loss being at 45 years old to ATG cassius clay

 

I rewatched the fight this morning and yes it's been a while. Ezzard took some good shots. Marciano landed good shots --better than I remembered. I'll concede that. There are other fights where his chin stood up to fire. But then, there are several -more than average for an ATG -where it just didn't.

Marciano-Charles I does not detract one iota from the argument. Again, Ezzard was in great condition (the best of his life according to one contemporty report), and had something to prove to his critics. Many fighters with less than average or vulnerable or questionable or glass jaws do not always hit the canvas when they get hit. Sometimes, they surprise us. Hearns surprised me against Leonard in the rematch! Terry Norris surprised me against Vaca. Floyd Patterson against Yvon Durelle. The fact that Ezzard's chin held up in Marciano I doesn't mean that he had a great chin -nor does it necessarily demand us to concede that he had a good chin.

We shouldn't examine one, or a few fights fights at the expense of others and then offer a premise. That's an agenda. That's what Manassa is doing. The fair-minded objectively consider context. I cannot simply overlook 30 knockdowns at the hands of exceptional and unexceptional fighters because of Ezzard's greatness, or my regard for him, or any other excuse. Perhaps you can consider context and assert that he had a great/good chin -that's fair too and we can politely disagree or discuss it.

 

Get over yourself mate.

If you really want to surprise yourself, look at the many other examples that have been provided for you other than Marciano-Charles I.

 

Skills can be considerable early on but can be expected to improve. Ezzard was great enough early on to deal with serious guys who were expected to beat him (like Burley) but you know that he became even better when he got out of the army.

 

Yes, because he became stronger both mentally and physically. Not more skilled.

 

Man, i can see it now but never would have guessed you had him in your ava. Great pic.

 

I think that you may be over-stating this. Ezzard was hurt at the end of I and was down in round 2 of the second before being stopped in the 8. He took Satterfield out in 2 rounds, not much time for Satterfield to mount a defense. You are also overstating my position. He was also KOd by a perfect shot by Walcott in 51, and went down three times against Angelo Dundee's boy John Holman and then went down again by Paul Andrews in '55.

(Repaired)

 

You're using a '55 Charles against himself.

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