Fighters you dislike due to their fanbase.

It was easy to reach that conclusion.

I suggested, in respect to Leonard and your earlier comments:

That, again, in respect to Leonard, there were:

And, that:

Your response:

Not sure what that says to you, but it's very clear to me that there's a whole lot you're disagreeing with there; most of which indicates that you think Leonard did nothing to raise any questions; that any questions raised are not valid and that its not ridiculous to deny every bit of negative comment aimed at Leonard.

 

Was that really the whole post from you? Anyhow, you and I clearly disagree in general on this issue, and that's what I answered to rather than breaking down every specific. For me there aren't any more questions to be answered about Leonard's career than, for example, Hagler's. Doesn't mean anyone of them are totally above criticism. There are probably things to criticize in just about every champion's career. Leonard's career was better than most ATG's. That doesn't mean you can't point to certain things that could have been better, but those don't mean much in the whole.

That's the gist of it for me, and you seem to view things differently and thus disagree with me.

 

No it wasn't, but your blanket disagreement with the entire post made that irrelevant. You seemed unclear on how I'd reached a certain conclusion. So, I explained how, referencing the relevant points.

Actually, I agree with most of what you've written here^, in principle. But, what you've described above isn't the same as stating that Leonard is unfairly heaped on; that he gets way more criticism, say, "for challenging Hagler than Hagler gets for bypassing more deserving challengers like Hearns, Graham etc" - a take, which completely ignores a key part of the story of how the Hagler/Leonard fight eventually got made, by the way.

There's two sides to every story (and then there's the official story) and the viewpoints on all sides need not be considered purely negative commentary. They may just question certain aspects of fights and why they turned out the way they did - or share broader opinions on overall careers - and be quite valid. I think most posters are fairly evenhanded in their review of the key fights and any circumstances surrounding them, even when they are on different sides of a debate. Yes - there are some extreme comments, but these either carry weight or they don't.

Leonard probably does attract more attention for his splintered career and alleged 'out of ring' skullduggery, as well as the aloof attitude towards his elite rivals. At the same time, this is likely because there's a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest he was a bit of a schemer and deemed himself 'better' than his peers, thinking nothing of showing them up, publicly, even when there was no obvious motive for doing so.

He really doesn't try to hide the fact, either and has, at times, appeared to revel in the idea of having been so clever. So, I don't think it is necessarily unfair to raise these aspects of Leonard, in discussions about him. I just wouldn't say that they are as important, as the fights themselves.

 

Lupe Pintor's fans at the Johnny Owen fight and Alan Minter's fans at the Hagler fight were both disgusting. Really the dregs of humanity in both cases. I don't blame Pintor though because he did nothing to encourage it and has been friendly with the Owen family since. Minter totally is to blame for his fans' behavior though.

 

I do think something like the idiotic notion that he retired just to wait Hagler is a more tinfoil criticism than other fighters get and I see it fairly often here. At times it's also suggested that he waited out Duran and Hearns in similar fashion. These are a kind of criticism that's fairly unique for Leonard, I'd say.

And I also have a hard time listening to whining about how Hagler and Duran (rematch) should have been pressured into terms that favored Leonard. They were both champions at the peak of their career in terms success and earning power, and didn’t need to agree to anything they didn’t want to agree to.

Then there are things with especially the Lalonde fight that were silly, but that I also think gets blown out of proportion since no one took it seriously anyhow.

 

I agree with this. And the general notion that Leonard is far more of a hot-button figure than either Hagler or even Duran.

 

I’m the exact same way .I’ve defended Sugar Ray Leonard so much I’ve become a fan of his

 

I suspect the uniqueness of criticism made of Leonard relates directly to the uniqueness of his career choices.

I mean, how many other All-Time Greats had a potential rubber match with one fellow ATG; a possible rematch with another ATG and had been, only months earlier, chasing their first match with yet another ATG, before deciding to retire instead?

Then, announced a come back a year later, listing all the opponents they were going to knockout, including the three aforementioned ATGs but, instead, had one tune-up then retired again?

Then, two years later, when one off those fights they’d been talking about for four or five years, had looked like it would never happen, because the ATG opponent in question had looked old in their last fight and had decided it might be time to hang ‘em up, announced another return and spent three to four months chasing/convincing a guy, who had been on the verge of a well-deserved retirement, to fight him; got his wish; got the most disputed decision in boxing history; denied a rematch and retired again?

And, the story doesn’t end there but you should be able to see my point.

Calling a notion “idiotic” is just the other extreme end of the same scale. I don’t subscribe to the theory that Leonard retired so as to lie in wait for Hagler to grow old, but there is enough evidence to understand why that view might have been formed by some. I think it’s fairly obvious that Leonard had harbored an intent to fight Hagler at some point, which just happened to be realized at the very end of Hagler’s career, when he was 95% retired (Arum’s words, at the time).

I can understand that. But, I find it more difficult to tolerate whining about 'whining’.

Leonard's third "return" was an even bigger money-making 'Leonard Showcase' than his second one. No one took it seriously? Perhaps, in retrospect, they don't. But, at the time, this fight somehow managed to generate the biggest purses in Light Heavyweight history and it may well have been the biggest PPV event to have occurred, at that time (although, I'm prepared to be corrected on that).

 

Yes, very few retire at their peak like Leonard did, but then very few had achieved or earned nearly as much by that stage either.

He was operated for a pretty serious injury and didn’t feel the desire anymore. A smart man won't face killers like Hearns et al if they lack desire and don't need the money. So that was a perfectally logical nove imo. But then restlessness, lack of purpose and a longing back to the spotlight sets in and with that comebacks. That's not at all unusual, just that Leonard was more succesful than most, until he wasn't anymore. I see nothing strange with and see no reason to mistrust his account.

That he would really be partying and doing coke just in an effort to wait Hagler is just silliness imo. Idiotic.

Only one of those view points is an extreme.

 

As for Lalonde, as you say everyone made money, including Donny. And it's not like Leonard hogged titles he hadn't earned. So a bit of a victimless crime. A bit annoying, yes, but hardly the end of the world.

 

That hasn't really addressed the question of uniqueness and who said anything about mistrusting his account?

But, while retiring on medical grounds makes sense for his first retirement (despite Leonard trying to get a match with Hagler, just prior to that), it doesn't for his comeback and his subsequent second, third and fourth retirements (before his actual, final retirement).

Leonard's lack of desire is suddenly supplanted by restlessness, many years later, and just happens to coincide with the moment Hagler utters sentiments of his own retirement? Maybe -

 

You stated no one took it seriously, when they clearly did, at the time.

 

That they wanted to see the fight doesn't mean that it was seen as a legit title fight in two divisions simultanously. It kind of falls on its own absurdity.

 

Yes. Restlessnes turns into desire. And at the same time he felt that Hagler's performance against Mugabi showed him that a succesful come back was indeed possible. Nothing at all strange to me.

Now contrast that with a scenario where he goes into a party and coke lifestyle just to wait Hagler out...

There's absolutely no contest for me which one of those makes most sense. One seems very realistic the other just plain dumb.

I can't explain this in any clearer way, so I'll stop for now.

 

Sure - because your willingness to believe Leonard became a John Belushi-level cocaine user isn't dumb, much.

I bet you bought the Leonard/Lalonde PPV, as well.

I have some shares in Bacofoil for you to invest in, when you're ready.