Frazier vs. Marciano

No problem.

 

Yes. It was me. I thought he did seem slower in that fight.

 

I know Zivic beat Armstrong and he had more losses then any other Champion in history.

I agree that Savold lost to some top names BUT he lost 40 times and half of those loses came against fighters that no one had ever heard of.

As far as BoxRec and Ring Record Book goes, neither one of them are exactly correct. If you look at the Ring Record Book up until and including 1984, you will see that Ike Williams fought Carmine Fatta in his 1st Pro bout. The last 2 Ring Record Books have him boxing Carmen Fotti. I asked Williams about that and he stated he fought Fatta, at that time I said to him, no, it was Fotti. Why was it changed?

ANSWER: Because I did the research and found out that it was Carmen Fotti, not Fatta.

I knew Fatta very well and he told me that he never fought Williams, so when I was looking through the old newspapers by micro-film, I found out that Fatta was right.

I also added several bouts for Savold, Tippy Larkin, Walcott, and many other Champions as well. All told I have corrected over 200 world championship boxing records for the Ring Record Book and over 1,000 records in all.

When Fight Fax 1st came out they too had Williams losing to Fatta until I sent them the information saying otherwise.

 

I was thinking the same thing.....Walcott and Charles would have had no problem handling Bonevena ( ellis had him down 2 times) not to take anything away from Oscar but he was not in their class and they both would have handled Jerry...styles...experience and ring generalship...Jerry did not start getting a bit more clever until he fought the slow sluggers like Foster,Lyle and Shavers....but Jerry got fustrated with pin point punchers and craftyness

 

Don't you think Patterson's speed had something to do with that.

After the Rocky bout, Moore won his next 11 in a row with 8 KO's, that doesn't seem to me that he was slipping. After the Patterson bout he went undefended in his next 20 bouts. All told he had 42 more bouts after fighting Rocky, and he was 37-3-2 with 24 KO's.

 

I agree with Oscar, BUT not with Quarry.

The only boxers that beat Jerry were Machen when he was just coming up, Ellis in a close decision and Ali, and who wouldn't lose to him.

 

Moore was one of the only fighter to fight on succesfully after taking on Marciano but it was obvious that Moore took a brutal beating in that fight...I believe if he had a rematch with Marciano he would be lucky to last a round or 2....every fighter marciano faced said he ruined them...Moore was a GREAT fighter and was able to muster up his advanced skills to fight on but he was not the same fighter prior to Marciano 1...like Frazier was never the same after the 1st Ali fight for various reasons....look at what all of Marciano's foes had to say...after a fight with him they were pretty much donions and Moore was broken down in that fight.

 

I agree for the most part BUT to have a record of 37-3-2 with 24 KO's isn't too bad with 2 of those loses against Hall of Famers and he beat the other in a return go.

Moore took a worse beating when he fought Durelle the 1st time, yet 8 months later he KO'ed him in 3. Plus before he fought Rocky, he took a lot of beatings.

 

Quarry was young but Machen was 34 yrs old and had lost ot Harold Johnson 5 yrs earlier...Patterson had Jerry down in there first fight ( a draw), Jerry had a good chin, I think it was more because of a well timed punch...something Walcott and Charles had in there arsenal....Ellis had some experience but I dont think anyone could say he would be able to give an effort against louis and Marciano that Walcott gave.

 

Experience is a wonderful thing and that is why Quarry lost to Machen. Machen had a game plan and Quarry thought he was an easy touch.

Walcott was on his game when he fought Louis in their 1st bout and even in their 2nd until he got too smart for his own good. The same holds true in the 1st Marciano bout. All he had to do was last the final 3 rounds and he would have remained the Champion. I like Ellis BUT it would be hard for him to do the same.

 

When Moore was asked who was the best fighter that he ever fought, he said it was Charley Burley.

"Moore was on the floor in the 1st, 3rd and 4th rounds (a total of four times) and was shaky at the finish, but Burley lacked the finishing touch." (Associated Press)

 

He was on his best winning streak ever going into the Marciano fight I think something like 47 1-1 wins with the loss being a disputed one to harold Johnson (who he beat 3 times last by KO)...Moore was peak and in this period beat Clarence Henry,Jimmy Bivins,Joey Maxim,Harold Johnson, # 1 Heavyweight contender Bob Baker KO 8,Nino Valdez 2 times, Oakland Billy Smith,Alberto Lovell,BoBo Olsen,Jimmy Slade,Embrell Davidson,Dogomar Martinez and Ko'd Bert Whitehurst ( who Sonny Liston could not stop in 2 fights......He did not take a beating in that period of time because most felt he won 49 in a row leading to Marciano but even though he was able to fight on and have a 38-4-2 record after fighting Marciano..Archie left a peice of him self in the ring that night and I think a rematch would have been a much quicker night for Marciano

 

Thing a lot of people dont understand is that Marciano would not take NO for an answer...Joe did well to avoid the bomb Marciano had ready to fire, he avoided it for almost 13 rds...but Rocky was determined and fit enough to have late power..3 more rds could be a long 9 minutes

 

You could be right on that BUT Marciano was having trouble with his back at that time and that might have hurt him if he continued. If not, I agree Rocky would have done away with Moore the same way Patterson did.

I just don't think it would be because of the beating he took from Rocky, I think it would be because Rocky would have learned something in the 1st bout that he can use in the return go. Rocky was always better in the return go.

 

I agree BUT if Walcott would have boxed defensively from the 13th round on, he just might have pulled it off.

The scores after 12 rounds were as follows:

Referee: Charlie Daggert 7-4 Walcott
Judge: Pete Tomasco 7-5 Walcott
Judge: Zach Clayton 8-4 Walcott

When I talked to Walcott about this he told me that he didn't want to do anything that he wasn't doing before, as it was working beautiful up until the time of the KO. If you look at the film, Walcott started to throw a punch and Rocky beat him to it. Also, the famous picture of Rocky landing his right against Walcott's jaw, wasn't the KO punch, that was taken several rounds before.