If you are maintaining that Frazier began slipping at 27 after the FOTC because of the punishment he took from Ali, you seem to be in a rather weak arguing position concerning whether Moore might have gone back due to the punishment he took from Marciano. The winning statistics prove Archie was still a great fighter, not that he was as great as he was going into the Marciano fight in 1955. Patterson was fast, but Moore does seem to have been slowing, not only off the Patterson film, but also the film of the Pompey fight.
"If Walcott had boxed defensively from the 13th round on, he just might have pulled it off." Off the film, Walcott was boxing defensively when he got knocked out. He retreated backward until Marciano caught him against the ropes. It was Conn who got aggressive.
If this quote was after his career, this means he considered Burley not only better than Marciano, but Charles and Ali also. Maybe Burley was, p4p, but he was a middleweight.
He really wasn't that fast anyway. I have all the tapes of his matches that are available, and he was a Great fighter, no doubt about it, BUT he was not that fast. I honestly can't see that he slowed down after the bout with Marciano, BUT maybe I am wrong, I will have to watch the tapes again. Everybody takes beating a different way. Frazier's style made it hard for him to continue at that rate. After Frazier fought Ali, he gained 10 pounds for his next 3 bouts and the last of those 3 was against Foreman. He lost some weight for his next couple of bouts BUT he really wasn't the same as he was when he fought from 1969 to 1971. He spent days in the hospital after boxing Ali the 1st time. If he didn't lose anything after the 1st Ali bout, then he did after the 1st Foreman bout. After those 2 bouts, Frazier was far from what he was. Walcott fought most of the bout that way, backing up, stopping hitting, then doing it over again, that was his style. Well I have to Ring Announce the Golden Gloves tomorrow and it's getting late so I'll check in with all of you at a later time.
Are you saying Moore was not fast...I watched a lot of his fights..he was not a speedy runner or a feather fisted guy..but he had a quick release...and power shots...cat like quickness...look at some of the fights leading up to Marciano and even the weird angle right hand he dropped Rocky with and coming out of the cross-armed defence...Archie was a mongoose....name suited him....watch some of his new films on u-tube...quick release
Savold "lost 40 times and half of those came to fighters no one has ever heard of." Well, once he started winning in 1939, he went 13 years and a boxing historian should have heard of everyone he lost to--Buddy Baer, Johnny Whiters, Billy Conn, Harry Bobo(2), Tony Musto, Tami Mauriello (2), Jimmy Bivins, Eddie Blunt, Jae Baksi (2), Al Hoosman, Elmer Ray, Fitzie Fitzpatrick, Phil Muscato, Bruce Woodcock, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano. A lot of defeats, but all of these men except Whiters, Blunt, and Hoosman appeared in RING MAGAZINE'S yearly ratings, and Savold also defeated these three. Why then was he so highly rated--in these years he defeated Maurice Strickland, Johnny Whiters, Erv Sarlin, Solly Krieger, Lou Brooks, Buddy Knox, Ted Wint, Bill Poland, Lou Nova (2), Tony Musto, Johnny Flynn, Nate Bolden, Lem Franklin (2), Eddie Blunt, Joe Baksi, Gus Dorazio, Kid Rivera, Al Hoosman, Bob Garner, Shamus O'Brien, Dulio Spagnola, Gino Buonvino, Buddy Walker, and Bruce Woodcock. This is a respectable group of victims, and most of them were knocked out. Clearly his losses to Baer, Conn, Mauriello, Bivins, Ray, Louis, and Marciano showed he was not top tier. His many victories over contenders showed he was the top gatekeeper of his era, always capable of beating the second tier men and doing it over a very long period.
I am not saying that he was slow BUT compared to Patterson he looked slow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCUkqyfUjTU&feature=related
To be honest a lot of fighters would look slow compared to a 21 year old Floyd Patterson. I always felt that Moore was just plain better at 175 than he was at heavyweight despite Archie Moore himself stating otherwise (he said that draining weight to make the LHW limit made him weaker). Watch him pick apart Yvon Durelle in the rematch (Moore was in his mid 40's): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgZ_y9DqjuU 5:35 Sometimes his right hand counter could be so quick that I wouldn't even notice it on film at first. More Archie Moore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATaP2TyF9U Moore in his younger days (still old for a boxer) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLvs0AvGK4Y The right hand he stunned Olson with was so fast that I had to show it on slow motion.
Your 100% correct. In fact of his 40 loses, 27 of them were against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another. The last time he lost to a non-contender was on July 17, 1939 against Andy Miller. Listen I know many people that trained with Lee and were very good friends of his and they all told me that he was a good tough fighter BUT he should not have fought either Louis or Rocky. Hoosman was rated once in October 1949, he was rated #8. Blunt was rated for 14 months from April 1937 to December 1943, his highest rating was #4. Whiters was rated for 3 months from June 1940 to August 1940, and his highest rating was #6.
Thanks for the info, hhascup. Just curiously, do you know how many victories Savold had over men who were ever rated? I would like to know. I think it might be more than 20. Eddie Blunt was also an interesting heavyweight from that era. He has victories over Jack Trammell, LeRoy Haynes, Jorge Brescia, Al Gainer, Abe Simon, Tony Musto, Buddy Baer, Lee Savold, and Nathan Mann, and yet was never even in the yearly RING Ratings, although as you informed me, he was in the monthly ratings. He was one of many--Trammell, Haynes, Curtis Sheppard, Lee Q Murrey, Al Hart, Elmer Ray, Turkey Thompson, Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Roscoe Toles, Buddy Walker--from the late 1930's through the 1940's who formed a corps of tough contenders worthy of comparision with any era, even the seventies.
Right now I am getting ready to go to the New Jersey Golden Gloves where I am the Ring Announcer. I will get that answer to you ASAP. Thanks, Henry Hascup
Sorry it took so long BUT Friday night I had to Ring Announce the Golden Gloves, Saturady morning I had to run a baseball meeting, Saturday afternoon I had to help move material out of my mother-in-laws house, then on Saturday night I had to announce several boxing from an Amateur club at a ski resort in New Jersey. Lee Savold Record against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another: 28 ( KO 19 ) – 27 ( KO 7 ) – 0 - ( NC 1 ) = 56 Bouts NAME – Weight Classes – Yrs. Rated – Months Rated – Highest Ratings – Date of Bout - Results 01. Dave Maier - 175 – 1/32 to 8/32 – 008 – 01 – 4/13/34 –L-KO-BY-1 02. Jack Gibbons – 160-175 – 10/35 to 4/41 – 027 – 04 – 4/4/35 – L-10 03. Ford Smith – Hwt. – 9/35 to 3/36 – 007 – 03 – 1/1/36 – W-10 04. Hank Hankinson - Hwt. – 6/35 to 3/36 – 009 – 04 – 6/12/36 – L-10 05. Sonny Boy Walker - Hwt. – 2/37 to 3/37 – 002 – 08 – 7/22/36 – L-8 06. Sonny Boy Walker - Hwt. – 2/37 to 3/37 – 002 – 08 – 8/12/36 – L-10 07. Ford Smith – Hwt. – 9/35 to 3/36 – 007 – 03 – 9/11/36 – W-KO-4 08. Phil Brubaker – 175-Hwt. – 4/36 to 11/36 – 008- 06 – 11/20/36 – L-TKO-BY-3 09. Lem Franklin - Hwt. – 3/41 to 5/42 – 015 – 02 – 015 – 02 – L-KO-BY-2 10. Deacon Johnny Brown – 175 – 5/46 to 5/46 - 001 – 10 – 7/24/39 – W-TKO-1 11. Buddy Baer - Hwt. – 11/35 to 2/43 – 032 – 02 – 10/30/39 – L-NWS-8 12. Pal Silvers – 147 – 12/28 to 12/28 – 001 – 08 – 11/24/39 – W-KO-3 13. Maurice Stickland - Hwt. – 11/37 to 2/40 – 011 – 07 – 12/4/39 – W-KO-3 14. Johnny Whiters - Hwt. – 6/40 to 8/40 – 003 – 06 – 3/28/40 – L-10 15. Red Bruce – 175 – 5/36 to 5/36 – 001 – 08 – 6/13/40 – W-KO-4 16. Johnny Whiters - Hwt. – 6/40 to 8/40 – 003 – 06 – 6/24/40 – W-NWS-8 17. Bob Nestell - Hwt. – 4/37 to 2/40 – 004 – 09 – 8/19/40 – W-KO-3 18. Billy Conn – 160-Hwt. – 6/37 to 2/47 – 073 – CH – 11/29/40 – L-12 19. Harry Bobo – Hwt. – 2/42 to 6/43 – 011 – 04 – 5/26/41 – L-10 20. Erv Sarlin – 175 – 5/41 to 4/42 – 012 – 06 – 7/14/41- W-10 21. Solly Krieger – 160-175 3/36 to 2/42 – 045 – 01 – 7/22/41 – W-10 22. Harry Bobo – Hwt. – 2/42 to 6/43 – 011 – 04 – 8/12/41 – L-KO-BY-2 23. Lou Brooks - Hwt. – 2/43 to 3/43 – 002 – 08 – 9/17/41 – W-KO-6 24. Buddy Knox - Hwt. – 10/38 to 2/42 – 008 – 08 – 12/2/41 – W-TKO-6 25. Lou Nova - Hwt. – 2/38 to 8/45 – 050 – 01 – 5/25/42 – W-TKO-8 26. Tony Musto - Hwt. – 6/41 to 3/43 – 006 – 08 – 8/21/42 – L-10 27. Tony Musto - Hwt. – 6/41 to 3/43 – 006 – 08 – 9/17/42 – W-10 28. Johnny Flynn - Hwt. – 5/45 to 9/49 – 013 – 04 – 9/22/42 – W-KO-4 29. Tami Mauriello – 160-Hwt. – 2/41 to 12/47 – 076 – 02 – 10/30/42 – L-10 30. Jimmy Bivins – 160-Hwt. – 8/40 to 2/54 – 125 – 01 – 11/27/42 – L-10 31. Nate Bolden – 160-175 – 11/39 to 4/46 – 036 – 01 – 1/22/43 – W-TKO-3 32. Lem Franklin - Hwt. – 3/41 to 5/42 – 015 – 02 – 2/15/43 – W-KO-10 33. Lem Franklin - Hwt. – 3/41 to 5/42 – 015 – 02 – 4/16/43 – W-KO-8 34. Lou Nova - Hwt. – 2/38 to 8/45 – 050 – 01 – 8/9/43 – W-TKO-7 35. Eddie Blunt - Hwt. – 4/37 to 12/43 – 014 – 04 - 10/5/43 – L-10 36. Eddie Blunt - Hwt. – 4/37 to 12/43 – 014 – 04 - 10/22/43 – W-KO-1 37. Tami Mauriello – 160-Hwt. – 2/41 to 12/47 – 076 – 02 – 11/5/43 – L-10 38. Joe Baksi – Hwt. – 6/43 to 4/52 – 074 – 01 – 3/10/44 – W-10 39. Joe Baksi – Hwt. – 6/43 to 4/52 – 074 – 01 – 5/26/44 – L-12 40. Joe Baksi – Hwt. – 6/43 to 4/52 – 074 – 01 – 8/7/44 – L-10 41. Gus Dorazio – Hwt. – 2/39 to 6/44 – 018 – 04 – 12/15/44 – W-10 42. Kid Riviera – Hwt. – 9/47 to 5/50 – 004 – 09 – 11/7/45 – W-KO-3 43. Al Hoosman – Hwt. – 10/49 to 10/49 – 001 – 08 – 12/3/45 – W-10 44. Al Hoosman – Hwt. – 10/49 to 10/49 – 001 – 08 – 1/7/46 – L-10 45. Auturo Godoy – Hwt. – 2/37 to 9/48 – 054 – 01 – 3/1/46 – NC-8 46. Bob Garner - 175 - 2/44 to 1/45 - 010 - 04 - 5/15/46 - W-KO-2 47. Jimmy O’Brien – 175 – 10/44 to 4/45 – 003 – 09 – 6/13/46 – W-10 48. Elmer Ray – Hwt. – 12/44 to 4/49 – 043 – 01 – 8/28/46 – L-KO-BY-2 49. Fitzie Fitzpatrick – 175-Hwt. – 6/44 to 1/48 – 034 – 01 – 1/28/47 – L-10 50. Phil Muscato – 175-Hwt. – 9/45 to 6/48 - 023 – 02 – 3/11/47 – L-10 51. Phil Muscato – 175-Hwt. – 9/45 to 6/48 - 023 – 02 – 4/16/47 – L-10 52. Buddy Walker – Hwt. – 4/40 to 3/45 – 033 - 05 – 5/4/48 – W-KO-1 53. Bruce Woodcock- 175-Hwt. – 2/44 to 12/50 – 059 – 02 – 12/6/48 – L-DQ-4 54. Bruce Woodcock- 175-Hwt. – 2/44 to 12/50 – 059 – 02 – 6/6/50 – W-TKO-4 55. Joe Louis – Hwt. – 2/35 to 3/52 – 187 – CH – 6/15/51 – L-KO-6 56. Rocky Marciano – Hwt. – 6/50 to 6/56 – 071 – CH – 2/13/52 – L-TKO-BY-6
hhascup-----no problem at all. I will wait anytime a few days to get info like this. Thank you very much.
Thanks, and you can call me Henry By the way, what's you boxing background, how old are you and where are you from. If you want, you can E-Mail me at: This content is protected Thanks, Henry Hascup
