Harry Greb: GOAT?

1 in 5, officially 1-3-1.

Greb was past prime & half blind by their 5th & final fight.

Most observers disagreed with the official verdict in their 2nd contest. Had that been scored as per the majority view, he'd be 2-2-1 vs the larger ATG, Tunney.

 

Happy to be corrected,that is how we learn!

 

I thought it's as good as any, though alas , I have never lived up to it as Sam undoubtedly did.

 

What kind of crowd attendances did these newspaper fights get? Experts on here say palms were greased to give their man better press when certain named fighters pop up.

Did Harry Greb’s management resort to these kind of tactics? I see a lot of the Pittsburgh press actually voted for a Kid Norfolk victory in their 1921 battle @Forbes Field with 5,500 fans (Off the Internet) Impressive better crowds than some shows today.

With Norfolk’s eye already damaged after a severe beating from vs Lee Anderson for the “Colored Heavyweight” title did Harry Greb take some liberties?

Something back then a fighter wouldnt do was intentionally harm a cut eye (despite this being the hurt business) With them being so active there was respect between many.

With the papers split Referee Yock Henniger a Pittsburgh native says he would have given it to Greb had he been allowed (Off Internet)

 

The ND rule was installed to avert gambling on the event and/or officials (judges and refs) being paid off.

It’s obvious that a fighters performance might be influenced by the knowledge that he couldn’t “officially” lose unless KO’d or DQ’d.

However, fighters also knew that fans/bettors also deferred to newspaper reports - the ONLY form of decision that could pass under the radar.

For a current fan to also defer to those reports is NOT revisionism.

Fans today will also reference consensus media opinion as and when it aligns with their own opinion.

Do fans not bolster their cases for so called robberies when popular media opinion also supports same?

Someone said IF the outcome of certain fights was literally decided by the media’s “say so”we’d have reversals of decisions in fights like PAC vs Horn.

And, the point is…? I’m personally okay with that decision but it seems the majority are not -

I am not so arrogant to think that only my opinion matters…. and if I was the only dissenter among 10 other opinions in total, I would naturally expect that anybody looking at those opinions would likely go with the majority (albeit at their own peril ignoring my golden opinion ).

Write ups on NDs, when reasonably interpreted and weighted, are not at all something to be dismissed out of hand - they can inform on significant features to fighters of the day and their standing among fellow fighters.

I could cite a fight I think was a robbery - no need to argue if it was or not, since I’m sure everyone has their own fight(s) they too think were robberies.

It doesn’t matter what the “official” decision was, YOU will defer to who YOU think won and who YOU think lost.

You will maintain that position in discussions, making your case and perhaps even calling in majority media opinion where applicable.

Are you guilty of revisionism or trying to change the literal fact of the “official” judges’ verdicts? Of course not.

If you’re calling it a robbery, you’re obviously acknowledging the “official” decision whilst arguing agains it at the same time.

And that’s in cases where an “official” decision has been rendered.

During the ND era the canvas was blank so to speak, so obviously, the opinions of the sports writers are the ONLY go to for any feedback and gage on those matches.

 

Hey Mc, every now and then we’ve had posters (perhaps one, most notoriously) who perhaps should’ve called themselves Joe Grim.

They took a helluva beating, bounced on the forum canvas multiple times but kept coming back for more - took a lick’n’ but somehow kept on tick’n’ - truly living up to that great man’s name.

 

Harry Greb is in that upper echelon of greats but I don’t know if GOAT can be exclusively awarded to any one individual.

 

Maybe someone has seen this vid also and can help out.

A while back I stumbled across a YouTube clip of Tunney in his capacity as a Naval Officer during WW2 speaking to Aussie troops in Australia.

He came across as very candid and recollected the loss to Greb - he said words to the effect that, even in the process of just remembering and talking about it, he still felt the hurt and trauma of the beating Greb laid upon him.

I should’ve bookmarked it - do you think I can find it now? Of course but - but I’ll keep trying.

 

Men Who Stare at Goats. That’s a boxing film, right?

I must get around to watching that sometime.

I also somehow missed Boxing Helena. I def. would like to see her box. Shame on me - that’s a bit X-rated.

 

Yes, he was a great film maker and in all seriousness, Boxing Helena, directed by his daughter as you’ve said, was a terrific movie imo.

 

Jennifer Lynch is lucky she didnt have to box Harry Greb

From article in 1945

"In a contest against "Kid" Norfolk
he was advised that the "kid"
only had the use of one eye. This did
not worry Harry one iota. He lust
smiled and said, "That's ?well. I'll
jamb my thumb in his other one."
Greb was as good as his word, but the
"Kid" had similar ideas, ind gave
Harry a dose of his own medicine.
This was the cause of the "Windmill"
going stone blind in one eye early in
the piece.
Greb's method was to get to close
quarters and then unleash a persistent
barrage of short-arm punches to head
and body. He was as tough as whipcord
and a glutton for punishment."


You always read about Kid Norfolks weight advantage but never his eye in this fight,The same as you never read about what happened during the final sparring session between Greb & Dempsey

 

Vs Bob Roper end of 1922

The Pittsburgh Post reported that Roper entered the ring with a live snake draped around his neck! After he removed it, Greb moved in closer and buried Jack under a blizzard of flying leather. Roper took such a pasting that he was content to clinch and stall out man of the later rounds. According to Bill Paxton in The Fearless Harry Greb, Roper was thumbing or attempting to thumb Greb often in this fight. Based on assessments by opthalmologists familiar with retinal detachments, especially occurring to boxers, Paxton pinpoints this fight as probably being the one which finally cost Greb his sight in the right eye. To quote Paxton, "Unlike after the Kid Norfolk fight, when Greb didn't immediately go to a doctor, he was immediately seen with patches over his eyes days after this fight." This was Greb's last fight under the management of George Engel. He was under contract to Engel until December 29 and would not fight until after the contract lapsed. Also, Mrs. Greb was ill and Harry said that he would take a rest.

Rematch January 1923

This fight was reported in detail by the Pittsburgh Post. It was a rough affair with lots of pulling and hauling. Roper kept gouging Greb's eyes and even cuffed the referee twice, however Greb won the fight in one-sided fashion. Roper did land good punches in the 5th and 7th rounds. Greb suffered a cut eyebrow in the last round. Roper hit Greb after the bell ending the 10th round and Greb sailed into him. The police had to accompany Roper to the dressing room. Greb and Roper were censured the next day by the Pittsburgh Boxing Commission.


Writer Hal Eustance says he saw Harry Greb entering the ring wearing a eye patch! (Like a pirate?!?)This was one of his fights vs Tiger Flowers.One of Grebs trainers left his camp to go with Flowers so they knew the score with his eye,His good eye was then targeted.

This must have been common knowledge in the boxing community and the reason for the lack of title fights?

 

Here is a newspaper clip , supposedly from The Seattle Daily Times, 9-3-1920, that gives a very different description of the Dempsey -Greb sparring sessions ... I hope I post it correctly ..

<a href="https://imgbb.com/"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/PTLNJJy/Seattle-Daily-Times-1920-09-03-19.png" alt="Seattle-Daily-Times-1920-09-03-19" border="0" /></a>

https://ibb.co/7gfXBBD

Who knows if the writer was paid off but it paints a different picture than often given ...