Heavyweight PED use, itemized

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Jun 16, 2022.

  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    It counts as a PED. Whether it was technically illegal in the ring back then, I don't know.
     
  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Why then does it count as a PED? It was prescribed for a (wrongly) believed condition and it didn't enhance his performance (rather the opposite). Where then does the PED part come into play?

    Not illegal, not performance enhancing. The PED part is certainly missing from my perspective.

    Is something even defined as PED if not illegal?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  3. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    1. Weight loss-->PED
    2. Raises pulse, increases circulation and respiration-->PED

    The doctor knowingly prescribed it for the wrong reasons. Hypothyroidism is diagnosed off blood work, period. It worked for the first reason and may have worked in training for the second, but he was burned out by fight time.

    Similar to meth or any amphetamine.
     
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  4. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    It's now considered a PED. Ali tried to use it as a PED, but got his dosages wrong, as sometimes can happen. (As @NoNeck explains in greater detail and more knowledgeably above.)

    If the standard for calling something a PED is that it wasn't banned at the time, then even Bob Hazelton's steroid abuse wouldn't be PED use.
     
  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    As far as we know Ali's doctor prescribed because he thought Ali had an ailment he didn't have (this is something he's always aid as far as I know, see for example Hauser's book), but, yes, Ali seemed to treat it as a potent supplement and overdosed.

    To me that seems like a pretty useful distinction. In a literal sense a lot of legal things are performance enhancers. Products that enhance performance such as protein powder and creatine has a much more modest effect than just about all illegal ones, but they do enhance performance though fairly marginally. Still the legal ones aren't usually referred to as PEDs to my knowledge, it seems to be illegal ones. But, sure, items that were legal bur aren't anymore is a bit of a grey area. It depends on what one are looking for.

    Are we talking in terms of cheating they don't really qualify, since it's noy cheating breaking rules that doesn't exist yet. But if we're talking just literal performance enhancing, then of course steroids etc was definitely performance enhancing even when legal.

    Btw, are you sure Thyrolar is illegal today even when prescribed? And that it's performance enhancing even when taken in correct dosage? Is it even an issue or was Ali's case just a bizarre one-off? I suppose it should be illegal in combination with combat sports for the safety of the one taking it if nothing else.
     
  7. Barrf

    Barrf Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Marijuana is a PED? Unless we are talking about a cheetoh eating competition and not boxing, I don't see how that's the case.
     
  8. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I dunno, maybe

    you go and watch some old vids of Holyfield’s fights. In his cruiserweight days before the fights start ,his stats are always shown on screen and he’s shown to be 6’1 but when he moves up to heavyweight he’s suddenly shown to be 6’2 and a half. How is that possible?
     
  9. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I'm not really interested in the question of whether it's cheating. Rather, I'm interested in the prevalence of all of these substances because they're a factor in cross-era head to head comparisons. So if Lennox had been using steroids in 1989 (when it wasn't against the rules), I think we ought to know that.

    (Also, with respect to the marijuana, it's suggestive of the fighter's willingness to violate the rules on banned substances, which is useful to know for eras when steroids ARE banned.)

    Similarly, the fact that Ali can get Thyrolar in the 70s, and Hazelton can get steroids in a similar time frame, is relevant when we consider the availability of such substances back then. And fighters' willingness to use them.
     
  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Honestly it's probably just dodgy measurements or outright exaggeration

    I think it's maybe possible PEDs skew things to favour tall guys more since they have larger frames that are harder to fill out, and it's also possible that they help fighters compete while overweight. But I was mostly making a joke.
     
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I see the relevance in Hazelton taking steroids, because it, as you're getting at, shows that something that would make a big impact was used already then. No historical continuity with Ali bizzarely being prescribed Thyrolar by a quack with a license and then overdosing to boot because he didn't know what the hell he was taking, though. Something that wasn't illegal (at leat not at the time) and certainly not performance enhancing, probably not even in correct dosage.

    But enough said about this, at least for me. It is a bit of detour, after all.
     
  12. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    I have reviewed tens of thousands of medical records. The modern ~equivalent of Thyrolar, levothyroxine, is used exclusively for hypothyroidism. I haven't seen a single case, ever, when it was used for soemthing else and it is a common drug.

    I have little doubt why Ali was using it without bloodwork that supported its use.
     
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  13. BoB Box

    BoB Box "Hey Adam! Wanna play Nintendo?" Full Member

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    Did you make this list? This is very interesting
     
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  14. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    The top 10 rankings come from Boxrec's table of Ring ranked guys. But I did the colored highlights.
     
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  15. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Steroid testing still not required in the Golota/Bowe fights as late as 1996:

    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1996-10-18-1996292101-story.html

    "Dr. Billy Lathan, chief medical officer for the New York State Athletic Commission, said yesterday that his commission does not test for steroids, adding, 'I do not believe any state commission tests for it.'"

    (Botha tested positive around the same time in an IBF bout, though that one I think was in Germany. There's a court case with the details: https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/59148247add7b04934492d9a).
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
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