Heavyweight Top Ten

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mr. magoo, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    43,070
    13,566
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 11, 2005
    I tried to get Dempsey onto my list. I really tried.
     
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    66,425
    7,204
    Sportsbook:
    8
    Sep 15, 2009
    I managed it by excluding every one who weighed above 200 pounds.
     
  3. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,415
    2,543
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 26, 2011
    The simple truth is, more times than not, if you've already fought somebody 3 or 4 or 5 times and WON EVERY SINGLE TIME.. There won't be a demand to see them fight again. To say nothing of the fact that the victor of all those matches losses interest in wanting to fight them again. If I kicked the crap out of a guy 3 times that he's challenged me, the drive, the will, the intensity isn't there. Those are the plain hard facts that you can't get around. The fact is, most times in the long history of this sport, it's rare people fight more than 2 times, let alone 4 or 5 times. When it does happen, it's because there has at least been a split or they've been competitive. These fights weren't, Johnson dominated them, and yet you think he should've been eager to fight them again? I strongly disagree with such a premise.

    Think about what you just tried to say, Fitz was PRIME at the age of 36. That is totally and completely false, and you know it Mendoza. No fighter is prime at the age of 36. It's physically IMPOSSIBLE. We all know how the human body works, and you're NOT in your physical prime or close to it at 36. Mentally, sure, that is possible, but never physically. So that is thrown out the window there, he wasn't prime, and neither was Corbett. He was very much inactive at the time he fought Jeffries the first time, not prime. Further, it's a false comparison to say he's prime based on how he did after a particular fight. Hopkins was still winning titles and fights into his late 30's and 40's. That doesn't mean he was prime, nobody think he was in his prime, but he was still winning. Same thing here, Fitz was unquestionably NOT in his prime. The only fight you listed where somebody was close to prime was Sharkey, and that wasn't his best performance. Johnson crushes Sharkey with ease. Jeffries struggled mightily with Sharkey.

    The simple fact is, you can't have Jeffries no. 5 on your list based on beating old past their prime greats, while not counting the Jeffries win for Johnson. That is using a blatant double standard and being disingenuous. Johnson utterly destroyed Jeffries with ease. Jeffries struggled with Fitz and Corbett, that is the key difference here.
     
    mcvey likes this.
  4. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    92,181
    18,871
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    No you f*cking didn't! LOL
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  5. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    43,070
    13,566
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 11, 2005
    I actually had him at number 10 but realized I had forgotten Johnson.

    More curious, to me at least, is my suddenly not including Foreman.
     
    mcvey likes this.
  6. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    64,044
    12,338
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 15, 2006
    Jack Dempsey is a complex case.

    He has taken a hit in recent years, over his failure to fight Harry Wills.

    Despite this, his resume has three separate components, which could put him in this argument.

    1. A dominant run up to the title fight. Guys like Sonny Liston make these lists, based on not much more than this.

    2. Holding the title over a significant number of years, while consistently defending against key contenders. Whatever the flaws of his title reign, not that many have bettered it on paper.

    3. Beating the heir to his throne. Precious few have done that.

    I think that if you tweaked these three elements a bit, you would be looking at a top five man.

    There is still a lot to work with!
     
  7. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    43,070
    13,566
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 11, 2005
    When you break it down, a lot of those guys on that run who were "names" were on losing streaks. And he also lost to Meehan and got KO'd in that timeframe.
    It was a significant number of years because he sat on his ass for 3 years. Some contenders were much less than key... Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons even.
    This is more a hocus pocus thing, an apostolic succession type of mystical hogwash. He beat an old, inactive and even at his best universally derided champ.
     
  8. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

    50,803
    9,597
    Sportsbook:
    2,068
    Jul 21, 2012
    Dempsey >> WK.

    We all saw what Dempsey did to wrestler Cowboy Lutrell .. WK / Lutell - both wrestle boxers.
     
  9. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    64,044
    12,338
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 15, 2006
    Yes but he also beat most of the key contenders.

    Every champion missed somebody on their ride to the title!
    That is what many all-time great's resume's basically turn on.

    Beating a number of key contenders, over a number of years.

    If you are consistently defending against top ten opposition, that is basically what it takes!
    I was talking about Sharkey!
     
  10. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    43,070
    13,566
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 11, 2005
    Haye is not done yet!
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    90,526
    8,941
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 21, 2007
    I reckon the top two near unshakable:

    ALI, LOUIS

    Then I'd have the rest of the top 16, which I have no real qualms about people mixing up as they see fit:

    HARRY WILLS, SAM LANGFORD, JACK DEMPSEY, ROCKY MARCIANO, EVANDER HOLYFIELD, MIKE TYSON, GEORGE FOREMAN, LARRY HOLMES, JIM JEFFRIES, WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO, JOE FRAZIER, LENNOX LEWIS, JACK JOHNSON, SONNY LISTON

    Then you have the "next best", I can see that some cross pollination between this lot and the above would be ok if consistent/conservatively applied:

    EZZARD CHARLES, FLOYD PATTERSON, JAMES CORBETT, JOE WALCOTT, (and at a push) MAX SCHMELING, GENE TUNNEY, KEN NORTON, PETER JACKSON

    Then:
    RIDDICK BOWE, VITALI KLITSCHKO, BOB FITZSIMMONS, MAX BAER, JOE JEANETTE, SAM MCVEY.

    Then:

    JACK SHARKEY, ELMER RAY, JIMMY YOUNG, TIM WITHERSPOON, TOMMY BURNS, JIMMY ELLIS, ERNIE TERRELL, ARCHIE MOORE, TOM SHARKEY, JIMMY BIVINS.

    etc.

    Not that interested in head to head, for the record. If you're doing a head to head record you can essentially put them in any order you like without fear of being labelled "wrong".
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  12. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,348
    1,380
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 26, 2015
    Fleischer stated that Johnson rose head and shoulders above Langford, Jeanette and McVey. I tend to concur with his words. I believe if you watch available footage it is quite evident Johnson was an unbelievably skilled fighter with abilities that greatly exceeded his contemporaries.
     
  13. cuchulain

    cuchulain Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    27,047
    1,748
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 6, 2007
    First ten

    Ali
    Louis
    Lewis / Foreman
    Marciano / Holmes
    Tyson / Frazier / Liston
    Wlad


    Next ten

    Johnson
    Dempsey
    Holyfield
    Patterson
    Charles
    Walcott
    Norton
    Vitali
    Bowe
    Wills

    Next ten

    Corbett
    Schmeling
    Baer
    Jeffries
    Tunney
    Ingo J.
    Terrell
    Fitzimmons
    Archie Moore
    Jimmy Young.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    92,181
    18,871
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    The underlined is an outright and deliberate lie.
    Before becoming champion Johnson signed to fight Langford for $4000 in London,once champion he demanded the same price to defend his title as Burns had asked to fight him ,ie $30,000.
    At no time in his career was Johnson offered $30,000 to defend against Langford.If you wish to dispute my claim provide evidence to the contrary because I can back up my statement and have done so many times on this forum.
    Johnson accepted 2 offers to fight Jeannette in NY,both were vetoed by the NYC and the promoters,the McMahon brothers then withdrew their offers.
    Johnson accepted $45,000 to defend against Langford and McVey in Australia in a 2 fight deal for Hugh McIntosh,when Johnson jumped bail in the US McIntosh withdrew his offer.Johnson agreed to fight Langford for $30,000 in the US with a $10,000 bond as a token of good will,Joe Woodman ,Langford's manager could not come up with the $$$.
    In 1909, prior to the Johnson v Ketchel fight Woodman said their primary objective was a fight with Ketchel but that they would accept a fight with Johnson provided it was limited to 12 rds because he did not think 160lbs Sam could beat Johnson over a longer route .All this is easily verifiable in either Pollack's book of Johnson, or Moyle's book on Langford, but of course you don't want to hear the facts because that would not fit into your little hate agenda.


    You neglected to mention that in that 14 year period Fitzsimmons was retired for 4 years! Two separate retirements both lasting 2 years and his first fight coming out of retirement in each case was against Jeffries!LOL
    Now please confine yourself to ranking the heavyweights as asked by the OP and do not turn this into another hate Jack Johnson thread.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  15. Big Ukrainian

    Big Ukrainian Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,836
    6,814
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 10, 2007
    That's the worst list on this thread, buddy