Holmes's comp... How highly do you rate it?

And in doing so contributed to the proliferation of title belts in boxing by almost single handedly giving credibility to the IBF as an alternative ABC. He really doesn't get enough criticism for that.

 

Oh please.

Larry Holmes wanted to unify the titles with Gerrie Coetzee, the WBA Heavyweight Champion. The WBC didn't recognize and never rated Coetzee because he was from South Africa. In other words, he could NEVER be the WBC champ.

Instead, the WBC wanted Holmes to fight Greg Page.

Holmes knew the public recognized him as the champ, and decided to dump the belt and fight Coetzee. Then the IBF sprung up and said "We'll recognize you" so he said "Fine."

At the same time, the IBF also offered to recognize Michael Spinks and Marvin Hagler ... who were ALSO considered the lineal champs at light heavyweight and middleweight. And both Spinks and Hagler accepted, too. So it's not like Holmes was the only champ to accept their belt -- ALL THE LINEAL CHAMPS were.

So Holmes and Coetzee negotiated, they agreed to fight, HBO was going to televise, and the financing fell through repeatedly. Madison Square Garden was going to host it. Then Vegas. Then it was South Africa. The two fighters agreed to fight multiple times, but each time the financing collapsed. There are TONS of articles on this in every newspaper.

Holmes not fighting Page had everything to do with Holmes wanting a bigger payday with Coetzee than he'd ever get with Page, and unifying the heavyweight title, and the WBC not wanting to sanction a fight with someone from South Africa, and King trying to get Page a shot, and Holmes hating King, and King suing Holmes, and Holmes suing King ...

Hell, Holmes was "praised" for dumping the WBC belt. There were articles written at the time that all the other top champs should do it too.

Then, after everything shook out, the fight never took place. And, instead of making the alphabet groups weaker, it added another.

But the IBF only gained credibility because, unlike other orgs, it just came out and recognized the lineal champs immediately - Holmes, Spinks and Hagler.

It was a smart move on the IBF's part. If you want to criticize Holmes for accepting an IBF belt, you have to criticize Michael Spinks and Marvin Hagler, too.

Had the WBC not refused to let Coetzee fight for their belt, Holmes would've likely been the WBC, WBA and IBF champ just like Spinks and Hagler were.

 

Do you consider Ray Leonard a notable win on the record of Terry Norris? Hell, that win "made" him.

Same thing.

 

Except Leonard was favored to win that fight.

 

And Muhammad Ali was the lineal champ and Holmes was only favored 7-5 when the fight went off. Basically even money. You guys don't take that into consideration, just the result.

Leonard didn't win a round.

What's the difference? None.

 

Leonard was a favorite.
Leonard was younger.
Leonard wasn't pre-Parkinson's
Leonard wasn't wrecked off thyrolar
Leonard wasn't coming off that kind of layoff

 

And Sugar Ray Leonard entered the ring after a nearly two-year layoff.

Leonard was dropped by a shot to the chin in sparring by his sparring partner Michael Ward and then he (Leonard) had his ribs cracked (also by Ward). And he spent the whole rest of his training camp wearing a flack jacket and instructing his sparring partners not to punch at the body.

And he entered the ring against Norris - with no one knowing his ribs were cracked or that he'd been dropped and battered in sparring - and he proceeded to get his clock cleaned.

THAT IS TERRY NORRIS's signature win.

Beating an old Leonard who got dropped and broken in sparring to the point the fight never should've been held?

Leonard - who had been floored three times and had arguably lost two of his previous four fights (since many thought he lost the Hagler and Hearns fights before he fought Norris.

Why is this a signature win? Because Leonard was the "favorite?":roll:


Ali was the WBA Heavyweight champion until July 1979. JULY 1979. That month, he also sparred with Lyle Alzado (the most feared guy in the NFL at that time who had been fought as an amateur) in Denver.

Here it is. He looks the same as he did for every exhibition in the late 70s - trying sometimes, goofing off most of the rest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t5h4wtPwBo

He gave up the belt in exchange for $300,000 from Promoter Bob Arum. He sent a letter to the WBA in July stating he was retiring.

In March 1980 ... EIGHT MONTHS LATER ... Arum announced that Ali was going to fight the new WBA champion John Tate in JUNE.

Then Tate lost to Weaver, so Ali and Holmes decided to fight in October 1980.

When they stepped in the ring, the fight was basically even money (because Ali was old).

Ali could take his pick of which alphabet champ he wanted to fight (because Ali was the CHAMP). Ali was the star. Ali's purse was more than double Holmes' purse.

Same story with Leonard. Leonard got the much larger purse. Leonard could pick which champ he wanted to fight. He was the star, not Norris. And Leonard was a 12-5 favorite because Norris had gotten his ass knocked out a couple fights before.

Leonard shouldn't have fought Norris ... because Leonard was old, he'd been flattened by Hearns (twice) and LaLonde ... and he had been dropped in sparring and had his ribs cracked.

Ali shouldn't have fought Holmes ... because he was old ... and he was taking performance enhancing drugs to feel strong and cut weight ... and when he abused those drugs they began to zap his strength and make him weak.

Regardless, Norris beating Leonard MADE Norris. And Holmes beating Ali MADE Holmes.

If Sugar Ray chose Julian Jackson to fight instead, Norris wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. If Ali chose to fight Weaver or Tate, the title wouldn't gone the WBA route and Holmes likely wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame either.

 

And how a guy dies/or eventually dies/or what illnesses he suffers later doesn't play a role in whether a "win" counts.

I've never heard of something so bizarre.

 

So you think neurological disease happens overnight? One day you have it. The day before you didn't?

 

And I'll also ad that Leonard hadn't traded losses and wins with a fighter of Leon Spink's caliber in his last couple outings. Muhammad Ali wasn't even the best in the world anymore in 1978 let alone 1980. About the only top 10 fighter in 1980 that he could reasonably be favored to beat was possibly Tex Cobb. Larry Holmes should rightfully get credit for the win while Muhammad Ali rightfully receives the "L" on his record. But to compare resumes between Holmes and other champions and use THAT fight as a PLUS to boost any argument in his favor is pedestrian to say the least.

 

Okay, so are you going retroactively go back in time, see what diseases a fighter developed and how he died, and THEN decide if wins over him count?

atsch

Eddie Machen tried to kill himself before Johansson knocked him out. He did kill himself a couple years after Joe Frazier beat him. Do any wins over Machen count?

Ike Ibeabuchi developed some kind of mental disorder and tried to kill himself by crashing into a wall not too long after he beat Tua and knocked out Chris Byrd. Do we wipe out those losses on their records because he was mentally ill, or do you just discount the fights if the mentally ill guy loses?

Nearly every boxer on earth leaves the ring with some brain damage.

Do we wait until we see how they die or how injured they are in retirement to decide whose wins get to count?

No.

 

No, Leonard just got dropped and had his eye nearly closed against Donnie Lalonde, who, on his best day (which happened to be against Leonard), was never as good as Leon Spinks at his best.

Also, the first Ali-Spinks fight (which Ali lost) was EPIC. It was the goddamn FIGHT OF THE YEAR that year.

Watch it. Your mind will be blown at how many punches are being throw by both guys. The fifteenth round might be the best 15th round in heavyweight history.

Ali lost the Fight of the Year in 1978 by split decision and then he won the rematch against Spinks in lop-sided fashion - winning 10 or 11 rounds on all cards.

HIS NEXT FIGHT ... was against Holmes.

(Whereas Leonard, in his last two, got flatttened twice and drew, then ended the fight with Duran a bloody mess.)

But Ali sucked and Leonard didn't.

Got it. :hi:

 

The fact that Earnie Shavers, Leon Spinks and Ken Norton were all ranked fighters in 1979 and 1980 (Norton was the WBC number one in 1979 until Shavers beat him, Shavers was the WBC number one after he beat Norton, and Spinks was the WBC number one after he beat Mercado) ...

Tells me you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Muhammad Ali had wins over three guys who held the TOP SPOT in the WBC ratings in 1979 and 1980.

And he was still the lineal champ. Holmes' best wins before he faced Ali came against two guys (Norton and Shavers) Ali had already beaten.

When Ali gave up the WBA belt in 1979, Holmes had made defenses against Evangelista (who Ali had also already beaten), Ocasio and Weaver (three guys who, at the time, weren't considered world beaters). Nobody thought Holmes was better than Ali when Ali gave up the WBA belt.

By the time they fought in 1980, and Ali had been out for an extended period, Holmes was just barely favored (7-5).

 

Well there's the part about Ali's neurological symptoms before the fight.

 

And there's a whole host of guys who didn't beat him when he supposedly had them.

Ali supposedly had symptoms when he had Shavers out on his feet in the last round of their fight and beat him.

Does that mean Earnie Shavers is terrible and nobody can put Shavers on their record as good competition, because he couldn't beat a guy and nearly got KOd by a guy with symptoms?

Hearns supposedly had symptoms as early as the Hagler fight. Does Hagler's win over him not count? Do any of his fights after that not count?

You guys are exhausting.

Leonard counts as good competition on Terry's record, even though he had cracked ribs and had gotten beaten up in sparring. Ali counts on Larry's record. Machen counts on the records of guys who beat him. Tua and Byrd don't lose points because a mentally ill guy beat them.

This fight does count. This fight doesn't count. Screw that.

All fighters walk away hurt. All walk away worse than when they entered. (Hell, Terry Norris can barely speak now.)

All the fights count.


Enough already.