Yes but losing to an older version of Holyfield made people think that Tyson was overated, like the time he spent in prison did nothing to diminish his skills. You see morons on here all the time that insist Tyson was the same fighter from 86-98. The reason I rank Holyfield higher than Tyson was because of what he actually accomplished as a fighter. You cant rank a fighter on potential but for me watching Tyson coming up and then seeing how his career spiralled, his comeback and most of everything post Spinks was a disappointment. I like the other guy said, think best for best, Tyson was a much better fighter than Evander Holyfield, and thats saying alot because I think very highly of Holyfield.
Tyson was on the slide before he was inprisoned.......If he wasnt inprisoned do you think his legacy would have improved or was his abilities going to diminish at the same rate, so he would have been a similer fighter by the time of the Bruno 2 fight?
doesn't matter, it's about how YOU rate him. what other people think doesn't matter because you'll be forming your own opinion when you rank him. for example, I know from previous conversations that PP thinks I'm ludicrous for ranking Fitzsimmons as the goat and he doesn't believe he'd be competitive with Jones. I can debate a point with him but ultimately I make my own decisions. Just because Tyson didn't love up to what you hoped doesn't mean that what he did do was not great. After being incarcerated for 4 years, to come back and be the best HW again is amazing as far as I'm concerned. Then again I'm a generation or so younger than you so when I first got into boxing, the news was dominated by Iron Mike and his comeback. I wasn't disappointed, I was amazed he could comeback with such destructive ferocity and wipe aside two top level heavyweights. Did he become the goat heavyweight? not by my standing. but he became top 10 and I'm not sure he'd have done that without his post prison stint.
The place of potential in assessing a fighter is an interesting question. While I'd agree with anyone who said that potential is only knowable in terms of some actuality, and while I wouldn't rank a fighter soley on potential, I also aknowledge that being has both it's actual and potential aspects (and often what is actual in one respect is a potential in some other respect). I do think that potentialities are a legitimate consideration when assessing a fighter.
Yes he would have become top ten without the post prison career. Also your putting a lot of words in my mouth that I didnt say. Everyone has their own criteria for compiling their all time lists, thats why I dont get involved in those type of discussions very often. I was clear as to my view on Tyson and Holyfield.
Yes because I think he would have beaten Holyfield in 91. Tyson to me was a better fighter in 91, compared to the fighter who came out of prison. Tyson would have also most likely been retired and possibly made better choices in his career path by 1996. There was a lot of tension between Tyson and King after the Ruddock fights and a lot of people think King was responsible for setting Tyson up with a bogus defense.
I put no words in your mouth at all, I responded to your post with my own viewpoints. By my criteria, had he retired upon being arrested and never come back, he'd be outside my top ten and clearly behind holyfield, liston, frazier and dempsey. You have been clear, as have i. I said what tyson lacked in resume he made up for with his pre prison dominance and his subsequent comeback. This then led to the ensuing debate. I never once put any words in your mouth.
His skills would have still diminished maybe by 1996ish if he hadnt gone to prison, but by then he would have fought the guys who mattered and possibly beat them. Then regardless of what happened after 96, he still would have secured his legacy. Its like putting Ali into prison just before th first Frazier fight and then returning just after Thriller in Manilla. He wouldnt be regarded in the same respect he is today. What Tyson really lost, while in prison, as well as his skills, it was the big matches. the fights with Bowe, Holyfield, Moorer, Foreman, Lewis, Mercer etc I dont see Tyson losing to Moorer or Bowe 2bh
Unfortunately, that is a regular occurence. People seem to ignore or sweep under the carpet the fact that Tyson had just spent 4 years in prison
Holyfield beat the slightly better opposition. He also fought all the greats in his era. He fought and beat Holmes, Foreman, Bowe, Tyson and was competitive against Lewis. P.S Imagine Foremans resume if he had fought Holmes and Tyson as he was supposed to!