Holyfield's accomplishments

foxy quote,,

By the way you still haven't told me the reason you are greatly attracted to these big useless lumbering slabs of meat that you are so desperate to see ranked.

Is it because the lighter weight guys are too quick and skillful for someone with you're mental capacity? Or because you are 5' 6" and 135lbs, so watching Heavyweights makes you feel big, perhaps?

Go on, tell us why you are obsessed with these guys, duck egg.

Thanks for asking Foxy.

well i boxed at light heavy weight and i sparred against a fair number of heavy weights, i did better against the light heavys then i did the heavys, lol so i guess i got a respect for them Foxy. You can claim this is a ***ual thing as you turn everything ***ual that's why you fantasized openly on this forum about me cleaning the end of your co-ck remember?

as well, at the club i boxed at i had the chance to spar with some good am's that were lighter in weight then i was,,,,

Foxy, no offense to the small guys, but i wasn't even that good of a boxer and i could give those small guys GREAT sparring sessions, sparring sessions whereby they couldn't get past my jab and size. That's nature Foxy, you obviously have a hang up towards big guys because of a insecure feeling within you mate.

Now back to your 4th and 5th best Heavyweights Foxy. Don't tell me you have NEVER thought about it in anyway, you have, stop making such a fuss about such a simple thing. Who do you rate after your stated top 3 of

Ali
Lewis
Louis

????

 

Well, I think he was great anyway.

Steroids are part of life. Yes, maybe Holyfield took the steroids to be able to compete with men bigger than him. But the bigger men were taking steroids too, to be able to compete with each other or to crush smaller men.

The Qawi fight was his 12th professional fight. Muhammad Ali struggled with Doug Jones in his 18th pro fight. Ali might have taken 'roids too, who cares? I don't.

You obviously dislike Holyfield to single him out yet again for being "dirtiest since Marciano". He was no dirtier than the men he competed with. Tyson and Bowe were atrociously dirty too. It's part of the game, I suppose.

Whatever way you slice it, if you honestly and objectively compare him with his peers, Holyfield was great.

 

I think Holyfield gets a lot of flak not just for taking the PEDs but partly for "looking like" he takes steroids. And also for starting out at cruiser. And for being great.

Razor Ruddock put on just as much weight. Ray Mercer went from 200 pound amateur to 225 pound pro in a few years past the age of 27. Fat Frans Botha was caught taking steroids. Tommy Morrison admitted he wouldn't have been above cruiserweight without the steroids. Mike Weaver's weight fluctuated all over the place, 195 to 225 pounds and always ripped !

None of these guys were as great as Holyfield.

 

Exactly, it's just Holyfield was the ultimate pro and came into fights in amazing condition.

 

Me too :good

 

Actually you are wrong. I was a big fan of Holyfields and had he actually accomplished what he did while being clean I would rate him in the top 5 all time but I had suspected since the early 90s when he put on muscle, trained with Lee Haney, and had a build that looked like something out of a comic book that he was on steroids (and the circumstantial evidence continued to mount after that). Like legions of Lance Armstrong fans I didnt want to believe it but when he got caught it pretty much put the nail in his coffin for me. He went from being an undersized, tenacious competitor to a cheat who only got to the big dance through doping. He went from a guy who was sometimes rough while giving hell to bigger guys to a dirty fighter who could only compete with those bigger guys by breaking the rules in and out of the ring. Why should I let that slide? As a purist I dont care what he accomplished or how he looked doing it if its tainted and he was participating as an honest sportsman.

 

With the help of PEDs.

Its deluded fans like this who think guys like Schwarzennegger, Ronnie Coleman, Colombu, Holyfield, Jones, Armstrong, Bonds, McGuire, Lewis, etc were just hard workers and would have accomplished what they did without steroids. Whatever. If they could have they would have and wouldnt have taken the risks associated with them. Essentially some people are more members of the cult of personality than fans of the sport and as such they are more than willing to turn a blind eye so long as their heroes remain on the pedestal.

 

I am between the two camps here, hollyfield is clearly a great imo, but definitely used steroids, quite probably for a decent % of his career. The era and weight class he fought in means that at least some of his opponents were juiced too tho.

 

And Holyfield didnt compete against any of them except Mercer who has never been associated with steroids (unless you count his meaningless fight with Botha years later when both were shot) . His weight fluctuations can easily be seen in his fat content as he aged. Which of Holyfields opponents got caught with steroids or can realistically be associated with the? The only one I would grant would be Lewis and I dont even have any proof of that, just suspicions. The problem here, and the tellingly so, is that you seem to think Im singling out Holyfield by responding to a thread specifically about the man and somehow think that by naming a bunch of guys who Holyfield never fought that either did steroids or who you think did steroids that somehow that makes what Holyfield did "ok" and that it means he didnt tarnish those "accomplishments * " as much as he actually did. Ive actually met the man and he isnt a big guy so the idea that his jump up from LHW to CW to HW is incidental to the discussion is false. The idea that he got that physique, which he never had before or after his suspected use, is down to hard work. The idea that his baldness, his training with the most roided up human on the planet at the time, his heart problems, and oh yeah, that inconvenient incident of him actually getting caught purchasing steroids... yeah, that was all just a bunch of a coincidences and misunderstandings. He didnt really take PEDs he was just unfortunate to compete as a smaller man in an era where according to you everyone else was, and somehow excelled and then got caught up in a steroid ring by buying steroids for his uncle... he was really clean.:roll:

 

carl (i assumed)

 

Carl Lewis, who failed numerous steroids tests but all were swept under the rug just like Mayweathers.

 

Yes and it's deluded fans like you who only believe one fighter alone in that era took PED's, get your head out of your ass they will have all had a dabble.

 

He certainly got everything and more out of his talent.

I will say that his best three opponents at Cruiserweight were past their best - Carlos Deleon, Qwai, and Ossie Ocasio.

At heavyweight, he never beat a really good prime boxer/puncher. He was lucky Douglas showed up out of shape and undermotivated. Moorer was able to outbox him.

Prime Holmes, Page, Tubbs, Tucker would have been tough for him to beat.