Which is? Is that where you got that statistic from? Then yes. As opposed to "all of d stoppages throughout history," which is what YOU said? You mean like the kind of "clinching caveman" who outboxed the Bull easily at Wembley Arena? :deal No you're not - you're being assumptive. Yes, CLEARLY OUTSCORING YOUR OPPONENT is a small thing in scoring fights. atsch :roll: Yes, alongside your own claims that Chuvalo was better than Norton and Tua beat Byrd, please. Because the facts clearly support it. Then what did you give Tua points for? And why does he belong in the Hall more than Walker? And had had significantly less fights in his youth than all of those fighters. ...who were embarrassingly KO'd by Bear- and Nova-sized men. He wasn't even "light years ahead" of Al Cole or Ruiz, the latter of whom you criticized earlier in this thread. You're right, I watched the fight live and saw Mesi get dropped and barely survive the distance. In other words, one prime journeyman and three washed up journeyman. Why not? "Tua will get a chance to move back into the mandatory challenger position with a win over third-rated Danell Nicholson, a 33-year-old journeyman whose only three losses were the kind that set your career back to the drawing board." -The Boston Globe, March 23, 2001. You're right - Walker was even better. You're right - he was even less skilled and more limited. And infinitely more reasonable than any sort of claim you've made here.
c d below 4 examples 2 d worth of going by face value Lets start with most of Ali's known stoppage wins which were due 2 cuts / swelling due 2 his initially torn / possibly loaded gloves & d timeouts he got due 2 Dundee's antics and d smelling salts that allowed him altogether combined 2 not get stopped himself - at least 5 stoppages D rumble in d jungle (made a thread about it) - 6 Now Holmes with thumbing Shavers - 7 , Zivic's stoppages due 2 laces etc - at least 35 , Holt vs Torres #2 - 36 Moorer & Holyfield vs Cooper , see Ali vs Cooper - 38 Margachito's , Resto's & Chito Trinidad's stoppages combined due 2 their loaded gloves - at least 60 Tyson's elbows & headbutts - at least 70 Jones' bull**** stoppages over Griffin , Sosa (some1 made a thread about it) - 72 , and then d jobbing his team did 2 Vaca as well - 73 Cooney punching a downed Norton , Tua punching a downed Moorer , Marchegiano punching a downed Cream , Tua punching Rahman after d bell , Louis punching Buddy Baer after d bell - 78 McCall holding & hitting Diaz , Lewis holding & hitting Grant - 80 Marchegiano's elbows and possibly headbutts & loaded gloves - at least 90 Hatton's fouls style - at least 100 Bruno's fouls (as seen vs Carl Williams , Jesse Fergusson and others - at least 110 Herol Graham's , Eusebio Pedroza's , Michael Spinks' combined foul induced stoppages - at least 140 Hopkins' , Honeyghan's headjobs (and also pushes , holding & hitting in Hopkins' case , thumbs in Graham's case) - at least 160 Witherspoon hitting a downed Bruno - 161 , Tarver stopping Harding in their rematch due 2 Harding fighting still injured (I think I got this 1 from u) - 162 , same with Wladimir vs Brewster #2 & Lewis vs McCall #2 - 164 , Dimitrenko's homeland stoppage over Hoffman - 165 Pacquiao's stoppage over a weakened Cotto - 166 Toney's stoppages over super drained Nunn , Barkley & Williams - 169 Leonard's stoppages over super drained Hearns & Kalule - 171 , McCallum's stoppage over super drained Kalule - 172 Duran's fould jobs on DeJesus & Buchanan & probably a few more & LW - at least 180 Dempsey's low blow left hook combo vs Sharkey - 181 Frazier's thumbing (intentional or not) of Chuvalo - 182 Benn's over McClellan - 183 Pryor over Aguello *2 (don't expect d anyways old Arguello 2 not b effected by d additional beating he took from Pryor in their 1st fight) - 185 Mysterious Billy Smith's (allegedly another dirty fighter) - at least 190 Johanson hitting a downed Machen - 191 Saddler easily brings it 2 more than 220 if u like . about 40 % of all stoppages throught history , which reminds me of Max Molyneaux loss 2 some Drunkey Phatson (actually 2 his team and d crowd) as well . What easily ? and he didn't clinch until he was totally fatigued from that "ease" but then he was no caveman so what r u typing about ? I assumed it was Bruno vs McCall . Part of being realistic . clearly outscoring only according 2 u (, your likes) and corrupt judges . I might work on it . And while I won't deny that Tua deserved a win more than Byrd did , I didn't claim that he beat him No , because your posts r full of **** . Wrong guess by u . 4 1 being d aggressor , 4 2 landing d harder grazing punches . I also didn't claim that Tua beat Byrd but what do u give Byrd points 4 ? Because he stopped Sam Langford and took him d distance d rest of d times and avenged his own stoppage loss 2 Mysterious Billy Smith with a stoppage win of his own . Then he also extended Jack Johnson and then he also KOd Joe Walcott . He achieved far more than Walker and was far better . U don't count his amateur fights and his sparring sessions which all have their effect as well . Then u do count d old timers' sparring sessions which r listed in boxrec . At least Maskaev in his prime or close 2 it wasn't Ruiz had his foul spoiling style which makes it quite irrelevant and what makes u think Schmelling & Baer were any better than Cole ? they were Ruiz like . Then u should not have even mention it because u r supposed 2 know y & what made Mesi go down and caused him that long lasting damage . So unless he beat at least 2 out of Lewis , Klitschko and Klitschko he is a nobody 4u . Well in this case so r Lewis , Klitschko & Klitschko . what i meant here was that according 2 your criteria Nicholson was a much less than a mediocre journeyman which is supposed 2b d status of greats and halfway greats . Walker was a showbizz star , Schmelling toyed with d toy bulldog , while d Toney who fought Holyfield / Jirov / Rahman / Peter #1 would have never gotten stopped by him and actually stood a realistic chance of fulfilling his own "Knockout" prediction . because his punch resistance & right hand r insurmountable handicaps ? 4u it is.
he had the bum of the month club but those lesser foes were lodged between a resume littered with Hall of Fame guys
You dropped the ball right there. Which 28 of Zivic's fights are you referring to? And what about Jefferson's "headjobs" against Harris? 23:46, 24:13: [yt]AZcFRm57vBU[/yt] And Jefferson's fouls bring it to 221, using your "logic." And with that, everything you just argued about Jefferson goes down the drain. Was he "totally fatigued" 2 1/2 minutes into the very first round?? 5:13 [yt]jjYc0o8_RuU[/yt] Yes he was - he was stiff, upright, plodding, and musclebound. No, the OPPOSITE of being realistic. With "my likes" happening to be the vast majority of people who saw the fight. Go ahead, then. No, the RIGHT guess by me. You're just ignorant of facts, as usual. For landing CLEAN punches, MORE punches, and jabbing him silly. No he didn't. Walker beat more HOFers, more champions/titleholders, more contenders, and won far more title fights. I didn't count Ali, Louis, or Charles' amateur fights and sparring sessions either - so what's your point? No, I don't. Since when are sparring sessions listed on boxrec?? You mean OTHER than the fact that they were HOFers and world champions, and NOT just journeymen like Cole? No, they also had world class power and (in Schmeling's case) world class skill. Yes - getting pummeled. No, unless he is NOT A JOURNEYMAN then he is nobody. No, according to MY criteria, he was indeed a journeyman and nowhere near anyone who was ever great or near-great. No, he was an ATG who had even more success in and around HW than Toney did. No, because his lack of ANYTHING ELSE was an insurmountable handicap.
I said at least . I bet there r more . I just made a conservative minimalistic assumption based on Zivic's reputation . I guess I could have posted 28*2 and remain conservative and correct . Do u expect me 2 post youtube links of Zivic ? I guess if 1 looks carefully enough , he might find them @ most fights . D question is r they intentional ? I guess they were , but 2b fair u need 2 rule out d possibility that Harris fouled as well , which I don't have d time 4 right now . I did watch this fight entirely and I think that twice . I guess he didn't like 2 get hit . Clinching has always been popular @ this showbizz . Bruno wasn't plodding , he was either aggressive with his foul style , which b4 u reply , is a great compliment compared 2 what can b said of Hopkins 4 1 instance . Stiff ? u mean like strong ? yes he was . Which facts m i ignorant of ? ring magazine's annual ratings ? they don't matter 2 much when ranking 1 based on his entire career . 1 fight can propel some1's ranking 2 heights , and then after that 1 flops and being exposed as a 1 hit wonder (Max Schmelling 4 n instance) whom in his case was even exposed many times even prior 2 his KO of Louis . I judge based on n entire career taking everything in2 consideration and not just sufficing with a short lived ranking in n infraweak era . Tua just didn't seem serious in that fight , I start 2 believe that he threw it 4 some reason . He looked amused many times throughout it and really didn't look like d terminator that he was . who did Walker beat ? all u have is single letters on paper . U proved 2 not know d meaning of d word beat . Since 4 n 6 rounders appear in it especially , but not only as NC, ND , NWS results . clear case of sparring sessions , no matter how u call it . Cole would have never lost d way Schmelling lost 2d guys that Schmelling lost 2 . Cole extended McCline , Schmelling stopped by Larry Gains , Cole beat Kirk Johnson , Schmelling stopped by Max Diekman , Cole outpoints Nate Miller*2 , Schmelling being outpointed by Jack Taylor , Cole outpoints James Warring , Schmelling draws with Jimmy Lyggett Sr , Cole outpoints Uriah Grant*2 , Schmelling draws with Leo Randol & Max Diekman . Cole draws with Jeremy Williams , Schmelling KOd &1 by Gipsy Daniels , Cole takes Rahman 10 rds distance & Lance Whitaker d full 12 , Schmelling stopped by Max Baer . Now Cole had more losses , but so did Schmelling . And now think that after all of this , Schmelling probably had a few robbery decisions that went his way on top of it all . Cole is still active @ d age of 47 , Schmelling retired @ 34 and came back 4 as a joke @ age 42 and retired finally @ 43 . Al Cole > Max Schmelling . Schmelling's "power&skill" failed 2 bail him out much often than not . In fact , his "power & skill" let him down every time except 1 time , against 1 ludicrously overrated fighter who is remembered by d name of Joe Louis . @ d back of d head . So u did forget this fight as well . What I meant was that u can't consider McCall & Tua & Dannel Nicholson as being even nearly equal . Getting stopped by Schmelling surely tops 24 completed rds with Sam Peters , 12 completed rds with Rahman , a stoppage over n admittedly shot Holyfield , but it wasn't a fresh peak Toney either . He had a great punch , great punch resistance , good stamina and underrated defense , it is a lot more than what can b said of Schmelling , Baer , Lou Nova etc .
There is one thing that occurs to me about the opposition Louis faced in his hey day - and it's something that occurs to me whenever I watch the Ezzard Charles-Joe Louis match - it always gets me thinking that to me it looks like Joe had he had the reflexes and handspeed of his prime that Ez was right there to be nailed all the while (but Joe just couldn't pull the trigger anymore at that stage) and had a young Joe Louis been in there then Ez Charles might well have been blown away pretty quickly so it strikes me that some of Louis' supposedly not so stellar opposition may have been done a certain amount of disservice based on the fact that it looked to me like a great fighter like Ez Charles would've been blown away just as quick as (if not quicker than) some of those guys - what do some of you think on that?
I would like to get others thoughts on the above - it was just something I used to think - like maybe the we don't give the bum of the month club their dues when it looked to me that even as an old man I got the impression that Louis would've chopped Ezzard Charles down if he could only land? Maybe we should credit some of the bum if the month club a bit more?
I think that Ezzard Charles is overrated . He had courage and fought every1 who was there 2b fought , but he also had height advantage over d vast majority of his opponents during his prime and even a weight advantage most of d time during his prime . I even disagree that Charles "beat" a post prime Louis and do agree that a prime Louis would have probably knocked him out . Louis did avoid Lee Q Murray though . Murray was d #1 threat 2 Louis during a horribly weak era and Louis avoided that 1 threat .
The fact remains that as great as Joe was (Top 1 or 2 all time HW) the opposition he beat was not great and average in total.
Thanks for your response frank - with that in mind how would you rate say people like Bob Paster/Lee Ramage/Tommy Farr/John Henry Lewis in comparison with a prime Ez Charles?
Louis's opposition was fine for his day... They were the best fighters around and he beat most of them in emphatic fashion... I wouldn't say those guys were too good head to head in cross era matchups however... Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis and Ken Norton probably would have beaten a fair number of them.
Louis opposition was almost d best he could find during his era , but d best opponent Louis could fight , Louis did not fight .
Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis and Ken Norton beat a fair number of top men in their own era. If you can consistently prove yourself against this type of fighter, in any era, then you aint half bad.
What a rollercoaster. It's unbelievable that Mendoza still kept repeating the same old "Louis ducked black fighters" mantra after his arguments were dispelled multiple times in this thread.