How does Tony Zale do against the murderers row?

He'd have won some and lost some. Take your pick on who does what.

The Row should've had more title shots, but that doesn't mean Zale was just a walkover that would've been lucky to snag a win here or there.

 

Gus was NOT good enough to be champion with Bivins Marshall Charles and Moore at 175. Gus was 5th best. The consensus two best light heavyweights of all time, Charles and Moore, were in their primes at 175 when Lesnevich was Champion. What does that say about Lesnevich?

Here is one example of a blatant duck


"Jimmy Bivins, hard-punching Cleveland negro, saw his hopes of a light-heavyweight title match with Gus Lesnevich fade today despite - or perhaps because of - the decisive whipping he gave the champion in a non-title 10 round bout last night. Despite the NBA edict that Bivins be given a title match "within 60 days" if he should win, Lew Diamond, manager of Lesnevich, effectively spiked any future bout. Bivins battered Lesnevich into the ropes with a heavy right in the 1st round - a punch acknowledged by Gus to have slowed him throughout the fight. Bivins dumped Lesnevich on the seat of his trunks in the 2nd round, but the champion got up before a count and successfully evaded Bivins' attempts to land a knockout punch." -United Press

• Unofficial UP scorecard - 7-2-1 Bivins

Post fight comment

• " There isn't a chance of Lesnevich fighting Bivins again." -Lew Diamond, Lesnevich's manager

“Christaforidas”

1-5 against Bivins Charles and Marshall

“mills”

Knocked out by Marshall

“Billy Fox”

Really? A mob controlled fighter who took part in mostly fixed fights.

“Mauriello”

0-2 vs Bivins

“Bettina”

Good win but past his prime


Bottom Line...Lesnevich was not good enough to become champion in a divison featuring Bivins, Moore, Marshall, and Charles. Lesnevich ducked all of them for as long as he could while champion. Charles, especially. Charles won three title eliminators to get a title shot vs Lesnevich and Lesnevichs camp continued to give him the run around. Charles seeked out and knocked out the best light heavyweight on the planet, a prime Archie Moore in 8 rounds in order to put the pressure on Lesnevich. Still didn’t work. A disgraceful title reign by Lesnevich

Charles eventually got Lesnevich to fight him at heavyweight once Charles had the keys to the kingdom and destroyed him so badly Gus retired

 

He also lost to Nate Bolden twice, lost to Soose, and never fought his number contender his number 1, number 2, and number 3 contenders Burley Lamotta and Williams.

Burley Charles Moore Marshall Lamotta and Williams were a lot better than hostac, soose, apostoli and graziano. A lot better

 

Moore was the number 1 middleweight contender in 1942. How does zale do vs him?

 

It's kind of funny how things work around here....Zale isn't being given much of a chance to do well at all, it seems.

I have to think that if the fights hadn't actually happened, nobody would be giving Shorty Hogue a chance in Hades of beating Marshall, Booker, and Moore, either. Hell, the guy actually beat those three and nobody rates him lol. He also got no title shot. Maybe it's time we rethink Shorty? Or, maybe to put it more accurately, think about him at all.

 

As a middleweight, Archie lost to Teddy Yarosz didn’t he? I see no reason to make middleweight Moore a huge favourite over any middleweight champion of that period. Good enough to fight for the title yes. Good enough to win it? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Gus didn’t retire because Charles destroyed him so badly, he retired because he had made enough money by then. Lesnevich eye had closed shut again, just as it had in earlier fights with Woodcock and Freddie Mills among others. It had been a long career for Gus by then.

Sure Charles was better than Gus. But it dosnt mean Gus did not deserve to be champion or Ring Magazine fighter of the year.

When Charles defended against Gus the gross gate was $75,000 for a world heavyweight title fight. Only 16,000 fans in Yankee Stadium..

When Gus fought Freddie Mills in London 46,000 fans drew $280,000. It was a record gate for the Lightheavyweight title.

 

I don’t know how you can say that with any real confidence. Abrams took Ray Robinson to a split decision and Ray Robinson was better than all those guys. Tony beat Abrams. Fred Apostoli was another great fighter. What makes you think Burley, Marshall, lamotta and Williams were so much better? They all lost to guys no better than Fred Apostoli didn’t they?

These guys were all good enough to be champion too. Just because those guys from the row didn’t sell enough tickets it dosnt make them better than the champions.

I tend to think many were no better. Some were better some were not. And there was a war on.

 

Exactly! Shorty Hogue. Why dosnt he get rated higher?

 

No one has suggested that.The Row should have had more title shots?

Moore was rated at middle weight in1941,he got his title shot at lhvy in1952 11 years later!
Charles was ranked at middle in1941, he had to wait until 1949 when he won the heavyweight title!
None of the 17 others I mentioned got a shot ever.

 

Tough fight Moore wins .Archie got his title chance at light heavy ,and 10 years later!

 

Gus did not deserve to be light heavyweight champion over Bivins in 1942 and certainly did not deserve to be champion 175lb over Charles, Moore, and Marshall in 46-47!

Lesnevich was Champion for one reason only...the color of his skin! He was not good enough to defeat the black murderers row at 175 and he and his management knew it

If Lesnevich defends his title against Bivins in 42, he loses

If Lesnevich defends his title against the top contenders Moore, Charles, and Marshall in 46-47, he gets badly knocked out and loses his title


Lesnevichs entire title reign was a sham!

 

Are you trying to say the fans, media, boxing community did not want to see Lesnevich defends his title vs Charles?


“mills”

Knocked out by Lloyd Marshall in 5 rounds, another murderers row member whom Lesnevich ducked .

 

A shame....Lesnevich ducked him and Charles like the plague for years. Poor Archie finally got his title shot at age 36 and got scammed so badly he didn’t even make a dime.

Moore or Charles would have handled Lesnevich in their sleep back in 1946-47

Read Ezzard Charles book. What Lesnevich manager did to Charles was disgraceful

 

Oh shut up with"there wasa war on "

1940
Lhvy ChampConn
No10 Marshall

1941
Champ Lesnevich
No10 Marshall

1942
Champ Lesnevich
No 5 Marshall

1943
Champ Lesnevich
No 1 Marshall

1944
Champ Lesnevich
No1Marshall

1945
Champ Lesnevich
No1 Moore
No4 Marshall

1946
Champ Lesnevich
No2 Charles
No3 Moore
No 4 Chase

1947
Champ Lesnevich
No1Charles
No 2 Moore
No7 Marshall

Quack! Quack!