How does Tony Zale do against the murderers row?

Why are you so obsessed with race?? Just curious

 

Doesn't answer my question

 

So what do you think you can do about it?
As boxing fans isn't it pretty obvious alot of these men were denied title shots?
So I just don't know where your trying to go with this? Zale is dead so it's not like you can ask him.
Your obviously insinuating that he was afraid to fight black men. Your being judge and jury here yet you won't just come out and say what you really think.

 

If gus wasn’t having these fights with Marshall, Moore and Charles but was taking fights that made less money than they could draw you would have a point. But this is not the case. Woodcock And Mills were huge events. Bigger than anything moore or Charles could have made.

Surely a champion has the right to take the more lucrative defence? So long as the challenger has a rating there is nothing wrong.

It’s down to governing bodies to strip a champion. Promoters, managers and boxers are in the business of making money.

 

Because injustice is a great angle. Without the injustice Burley is just another champion or another fighter good enough to be a champion. There were loads of them in every weight class. Charlie Burley was not the only guy who never got the breaks.

Artie Lavine, Shorty Houge, Jock Mcvey And George Abrams all beat great fighters and world champions too. There just was not enough titles for all the fighters good enough to be a champion to become champion.

Paul Cavaliere was 111-3-1, beat Tony Galento and Jimmy Braddock. Nobody cares who he was. Even at heavyweight the most scrutinised weight class there were fighters who never got the chance. Without publicity, matchmaking and backing nobody makes it. Not even all time greats.

 

"Zale missed out in 1941-1942 on 4 top rated future Hall-of-Famers Burley, Charles, Moore, and Williams"

Are you familiar with the 1941 ratings? Archie Moore was not rated anywhere that year. Burley was rated #5 at welterweight, not Zale's division. Williams was #6 at welterweight. Charles at least ended the year as the #2 middleweight contender, but behind Georgie Abrams. Zale unified the title against Abrams on November 28, 1941. Zale had only one fight in 1942, against Billy Conn on February 13, before going into the service.

I don't think you have any case here at all. Your complaint should be lodged against Hitler and WWII, not Zale.

"He missed out on his top 3 contenders in 1946 who were all future Hall-of-Famers Williams, Burley, and LaMotta."

The guy he defended against was also a future Hall-of-Famer. But I would be interested in knowing who was the actual #1 contender when Zale defended against Graziano in September of 1946. At the end of 1945, the ratings were

champ--Tony Zale
1-----Holman Williams
2-----Charley Burley
3-----Jake LaMotta
4-----Rocky Graziano

Williams--lost on 4-15-1946 to Bert Lytell. Lost on 7-7-1946 to Marcel Cerdan. Lost on 8-7-1946 to Jake LaMotta. I assume he lost his high rating.

LaMotta--did okay, but had a poor draw with Jimmy Edgar on 6-13-1946. Hard to see if beating the by now slipping in the ratings Williams would have regained his top spot.

Burley--might have stayed ahead of Graziano as he won all his fights. The question is how impressive were his wins? His ratings stature might have taken a hit with Williams, who had beaten him in 1945, losing so often in 1946.

Graziano--Won a so-what decision over Sonny Horne on 1-18-1946. This probably didn't help him much, but on March 29, 1946, he scored a really impressive KO in 2 over welter champ Marty Servo. Servo to that point had lost only to Sugar Ray Robinson via two decisions, and the second in 1942 had been a controversial split decision. I can see this leapfrogging Graziano up to #1 in the ratings.

But the end of the year, LaMotta and Burley were at #1 and #2 with a series of wins while Graziano had been KO'd by Zale, which would have dropped him some. Graziano still ended the year at #3.

"Lamotta was #1 rated"

In September of 1946? I doubt it. Either Burley or Graziano should have been.

"was from Graziano's backyard and drew just as well"

No, he didn't. Zale and Graziano drew almost 40,000 at Yankee Stadium. LaMotta never came close to drawing that sort of a crowd. Zale and Graziano did better business than Louis-Mauriello, despite Tami being a New York fighter.

"he was much better"

I think better, but the real issue is what the two were doing in 1946. Graziano was on a big win streak with mainly KO's rather than close decisions. Fair or not, that tends to arouse interest. Graziano was the one with the big punch which electrified the crowds.

*Just on LaMotta and Graziano. I prefer Graziano's movie biog to LaMotta's, and Paul Newman's performance to Robert DeNiro's. Pier Angeli was also the prettier leading lady. So there.

From Zale's point of view, after losing 4 years of prime earning power to the military, the choice of whom to defend against had to be a no brainer. Graziano was not only the big draw, but he was highly rated.

 

"why didn't he get a titleshot in 46?"

probably because of the draw with Jimmy Edgar, while Graziano was impressively KO'ing Marty Servo.

"he had to take a dive in order to get a shot"

He took the dive coming off a loss to Cecil Hudson. Who actually was the number one contender when LaMotta got his shot in 1949? I would like to know for certain. I think it was probably Steve Belloise.

"Burley, Moore, Charles, Marshall, Booker,Williams, Bivins"

Zale was champion before any of these guys were the top contender in his division.

 

Two points--this thread is about Zale, but much of the argument seems to be against Lesnevich as it easier to make a case concerning Charles and Moore in 1947 and 1948 than the men Zale didn't fight.

Secondly, the level of war-time competition is being overlooked. Fair or not, there was a cloud over the men who peaked during the war until they were able to prove themselves against post-war competition. This is from the December, 1945 Ring Magazine, writer Irving Rudd:

"While Cochrane and others were away, the calibre of pug developed during the acute wartime shortage was far below the standard of some five years ago. Men who received huge sums of money for main bouts at the Garden and other clubs could not, by pre-war standards, rate a six-round or semi-final spot on most matchmaker's cards."

That might be harsh, but it must be said that evidence and common sense backs it up. 15 million men in the service (in the US alone) has got to have had a devastating impact.

Interestingly, the war-time fighters have now become a "murderer's row" two generations after the war and those who watched them and their opposition fight after fight.