How Good Was Joe Calzaghe * really *?

Mod-Mania · Feb 13, 2024

Loudon said: ↑

It’s always fun to debate these things.

I’m going to have rejoin the debate tomorrow.

Just 2 quick points:

1. I don’t believe that many people would rate Mario Veit so highly.

2. The last 7 fighters literally weren’t world level guys.
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Whilst Velt was by no means a world beater, he was European and Interim WBO champion with wins over Brahemer and Brewer so he was clearly no mug.

Saintpat · Feb 13, 2024

Greg Price99 said: ↑

You're assuming I am arguing some things i have not argued for.

As per a previous post I have made in this thread, I believe that "a fighters top 6 wins are typically more material to their ranking than their 7th best and below wins".

As per a previous post ive made in this thread, Calzaghe having the best strength in depth to his SMW win resume in the divisions history is a "small" point. A point I make only because people often say Calzaghe’s resume lacks depth. It doesn't, it lacks wins over elite fighters in their prime.

Assuming the hypothetical LHW you mention beat all of those 8 x fighters conclusively in their respective primes, I'm not sure if I'd rank him above Foreman and Frazier at HW, I'd need more context. It's very unlikely I'd rank him above Ali and likely I'd rank him above the rest.

If a there was a boxer who had 8 x fights at SMW, won all 8, against prime versions of RJJ, Toney, Calzaghe, Ward, Kessler, Froch, Nunn and Ottke, I'd rank them #1 all time at SMW.

As it is, I think Calzaghe has a good argument for #1 all time at SMW.
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Thanks for the explanation.

For me, I’d still have him below Roy Jr and Toney. I can’t think of any others but I haven’t actually researched it (I don’t have top 10 lists, occasionally produce them for discussion on various threads here but it’s more off the top of my head in that moment and always subject to change).

Fair play if you have him No. 1, I was just trying to see if you were relying on 8-20 to make that judgment.

KO_King · Feb 13, 2024

Greg Price99 said: ↑

You're welcome mate, it's an enjoyable discussion.

I suspect I agree with you and Loudon on more of our discussion points than I disagree with you. And where I do disagree it's mostly by a matter of degrees, rather than holding fundamentally vastly different views.

Aside from their first fight, Veit was 45-0 going into to the Calzaghe rematch and holds wins over an unbeaten Jurgen Brahemer (future LHW world titlest) and Charles Brewer (beat Ottke on fair scorecards). Veit wasn't a level above guys like Pudwill, he was 2 levels above them.

I agree Calzaghe’s resume is weak for a guy with 20 odd world title wins spanning circa a decade.

I agree that SMW is historically not as strong as some other divisions, most notably the original 8, for obvious reasons.

I agree that there are boxers, such as RJJ, Toney and possibly Ward, who fought at SMW and rank higher than Calzaghe based on their entire careers.

I doubt Calzaghe has a case for a top 100 p4p boxer of all time, based on his relatively weak opposition.

As for the Froch comparison, Calzaghe beat a prime, undefeated Kessler about 9-3/8-4 on the cards. Froch lost to a slightly faded Kessler and then beat a slightly more faded version aroud 7-5/8-4.

Expanding the discussion beyond just fights at SMW, to their entire respective careers at all weights, which your "SMW is a stepping stone division" comment compels me to, Calzaghe’s 2nd best win is better than Froch's best.

Froch's 3rd to 8th best wins are comparable to Calzaghe’s, but then 9th and below belong to Joe by a wide margin.

Calzaghe was ring magazine champion at SMW. He was ring magazine champion at LHW. Ring ranked him as high as the 3rd best p4p fighter in the world.

Froch was never a ring magazine champion in any divison and whilst I thought I recalled him briefly being ranked #10 by the ring p4p, I can't now see him there on any of the annual ratings.

Ranking Calzaghe as an ATG alongside the likes of Hopkins or even Toney, is overrating him, relative the opposition he faced. Ranking him below Froch is most definitely, and frankly demonstrably, underrating him.
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I completely respect your position and your well articulated arguments. And, like you say, there are obvious points of agreement.
I suspect where we won't agree is the Froch comparison. I've always rated Carl higher, in terms of resume. I think his SM list of Pascal, Bute, Kessler, Abraham, Dirrell, Taylor trumps Calzaghe's resume of Kessler, Lacy, Veit, etc. Joe has more 'names' behind the top 6 or 7. But, for me, we start getting into padded record territory. I understand that Kessler was probably more faded by the time of the Froch fights. But, in my view, there are more quality wins overall.
I have never rated Lacy, now or then (lots of hype with little substance, proven by what he did - or didn't do - after.
I don't know. I'm perfectly happy to admit that I'm slightly down on Calzaghe because I lived through those wilderness years of WBO title defence disappointment. And someone like Froch, for example, was a breath of fresh air in comparison, seemingly much happier to take on consistent high quality opposition in a way that Joe never did.
But I appreciate the debate.

Greg Price99 · Feb 13, 2024

KO_King said: ↑

I completely respect your position and your well articulated arguments. And, like you say, there are obvious points of agreement.
I suspect where we won't agree is the Froch comparison. I've always rated Carl higher, in terms of resume. I think his SM list of Pascal, Bute, Kessler, Abraham, Dirrell, Taylor trumps Calzaghe's resume of Kessler, Lacy, Veit, etc. Joe has more 'names' behind the top 6 or 7. But, for me, we start getting into padded record territory. I understand that Kessler was probably more faded by the time of the Froch fights. But, in my view, there are more quality wins overall.
I have never rated Lacy, now or then (lots of hype with little substance, proven by what he did - or didn't do - after.
I don't know. I'm perfectly happy to admit that I'm slightly down on Calzaghe because I lived through those wilderness years of WBO title defence disappointment. And someone like Froch, for example, was a breath of fresh air in comparison, seemingly much happier to take on consistent high quality opposition in a way that Joe never did.
But I appreciate the debate.
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Cheers mate, we definitely see Froch/Calzaghe differently, but I appreciate the discussion too.

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