How you can call anyone with the power of a heavyweight insignificant is beyond me. Carwin's a NCAA Division II Wrestler, Nelson has a black belt in BJJ. I think you've got more challengers in the UFC heavyweight division than Strikeforce, who'd rather just throw their biggest names against eachother (not saying it isn't competitive) and don't think at all about keeping them relevent or building them up. What, in your estimation is significant, then? Your standards seem way to high for a heavyweight ****ing division. Not everyone can be Overeem or Nog at his best.
Fighters get rated according to there ability. Thats why we have rankings. Rankings are not based on "what if" and "supposition". The point is the UFC doesn't have any consistency at heavy. Carwin was the favourite vs Brock. He's inexperience was glaring. Brock was their champ and frankly we know the drill there. Zero MMA experience and coming off a pro wrestling background. Couture has been recycled numerous times and is close to 50. CC and Nog are simply shot. Mir is perennial contender etc etc. I mean seriously what fight is going to get fan interest when you have the likes of Brendan Snob getting the "push" and the only match of any interest is JDS Cain or Carwin Cain because of Cain's injury? The results speak for themself. And bottom line is the UFC is not producing any results worthy of the titles they give their heavyweight champions. "Baddest man on the planet!" Not even close. Biggest heavyweight MMA fight in history (Brock Carwin) again not even close. If there fighters were producing the goods we wouldn't even be arguing the topic. But right now the UFC title is like a game of hot potato and akin to the days when AA Sylvia and Mir were playing pass the parcel.
Proven? Let's look at what Overeem has done since losing to Liddell, Little Nog, Shogun, Werdum, Little Nog again, Arona, Shogun again, and Kharitonov... He beat Paul Buentello. Buentello went on to lose to Stuve, Kongo, and Sylvia. He beat Tae Hyun Lee. Lee is now 1-2 in his MMA career. He beat Mark Hunt. So did light a couple of light heavies, Manhoef and Mousasi. Then that heavyweight great Sean McCorkle, in the UFC. Then there was the no contest against Cro Cop. He then beat the legendary Gary Goodridge. How could I forget Tony Sylvester. The guy that lost to Tuchscherer, who couldn't get anywhere in the UFC. He also beat James Thompson. This was a couple fights after Thompson loss to Kimbo in a questionable stoppage. That questionable stoppage was after Thompson was knocked the **** out by Brett Rogers. Overeem beat Fujita. Fujita was 2-4 going into that fight with losses against Wanderlei Silva, Monson, Travis Wiuff, and Balgoi Ivanov. Overeem then beat Rogers and Duffee. This is such a stellar list. I know now how you question Lesnar. I mean if Overeem isn't the best ever after this, I don't know what to think.
I don't think Strikeforce has consistency in anything, if that's the case. I don't dispute the fact that it's inconsistent and that the title passes hands quickly, but to call it insignificant is plain silly, especially when you look at what they're playing against. Fighters who have left or been fired from the UFC. And we'll never find out what they're truly worth because fighters like Overeem or Fedor will never strike a deal with the UFC. I don't doubt Strikeforce has names, but after Mir and Brock I thought it was very exciting. Mir vs. Carwin, Carwin vs. Brock, Cain vs. Nog, JDS vs. Nelson/Gonzaga, Brock vs. Cain, and it's all delivered, and I'm sure JDS vs. Cain will too. I don't think it's any more insignificant than Strikeforce's other divisions. It's a drought, sure. But you've still got big names in there and all around heavyweights are hard to find. I think the problem, as you stated, is that they let their gatekeepers go and it's star quality over consistency, but really, it has to be considering the heavyweight division of anything is the most popular and they need a name. Fedor and Overeem are names bigger than the Strikeforce company. I think it's silly to just dismiss fighters like Mir, or Nelson, or Carwin, or even Schaub.
You cant use the same yardstick with SF. The UFC and NO ONE ELSE has pushed them as the elite in MMA. They're the ones that need to live up to the moniker they've given themself. Dana has already said SF is second rate. And overall it is somewhat to the UFC. Right now though SF clearly has the upperhand at heavy.
Are we talking about 'Reem and Fedor here? And I agree they have the upper hand, but you seem to think the UFC are serving us a **** sandwich here. Like I said, Overeem and Fedor are one of a kind fighters. Take them out of the equation and you'll see Strikeforce's division isn't as spectacular as you'd like to think.
C'mon scurlar, how legit are Overeem's titles? Who did he beat for the StrikeForce belt? Who did he beat for the Dream title? Those titles are just jewelry. Werdum is the #1 StrikeForce heavy, and everyone knows it.
when lesnar beat heath herring he was proclaimed an unstoppable force by all. the standards in and out of the ufc are truly different. this is not to say that overeem is unstoppable, I think he has more to prove in that regard, which this tournament will provide. However he has beaten fighters better than herring and still we are overwhelmed with criticism. the zuffa hype machine creates miracles out of circumstance. focus hard and you will see through the fog. fight the hype!
The same argument can easily be levelled at Cain and JDS. Apart from those two the division is nothing to write home about. At least SF boast the greatest Heavy of all time and some serious contenders with great resume's.
WTF? STFU noob. edit: QTF means Quoted For Truth, I see. I guess I thought it meant the other thing...
I like Strikeforce's division a little better. Fight! magazine has updated HW rankings 1. Cain Velasquez - UFC 2. Fedor Emelianenko - SF 3. Fabricio Werdum - SF 4. Alistair Overeem - SF 5. Brock Lesnar - UFC 6. Josh Barnett - SF 7. Junior dos Santos - UFC 8. Shane Carwin - UFC 9. Frank Mir - UFC 10. Antonio Silva - SF SF has 5 out of the top 10, so overall the two organizations are about equal in the HW division. Cain vs Fedor or Overeem would be epic, I think he would smash Werdum though. But I really don't think Cain should be at the top only becuase he does not have enough fights. It's pretty amazing when you only have to beat 3 top ten guys and then get ranked #1.
Another way of looking at it is SF have 4 out of the top 6 on that list. SF clearly has the better heavyweights.
As I said in the other thread its still way too early to make judgements BUT I do see SF as having more fighters with the potential to fight at a high level. Guys like Kongo, Nelson, Browne, Struve, Rothwell etc in the UFC are certainly decent HW's who can with the right style matchups, good form and a bit of luck be a test for the best but they do not IMHO have the potential to consistantly win big matches. Nog and Crocop were obviously great fighters in the past but today all signs point to those days being over. It is possible I spose that if Nog changed his tactics to focus more on the ground(pulling guard if need be ala Maia) he could stay top 10 for awhile longer but I don't see him doing that. Carwin, Lesnar and Mir do have more potential for long term sucess but there are really large question marks next to all of them now. Carwin gassed so hard vs Brock(and really he wasnt even THAT active) that his ability to go 15 let alone 25 mins has to seriously be in question while Brock and Mir's reaction to getting hit is incredable poor. Even JDS and Cain have really not been tested all that much, how will Junior react to being put on his back or facing a really elite striker? how will Cain react to facing an elite striker he can't takedown easily?
Another way of looking at it is that it's a **** list. Fedor above the guy that beat him? Overeem in the top 4? Get **** out of here. Barnett hasn't beat anyone of note in years, and he is ahead of the guy that knocked out Werdum.