How much would Liston, Shavers, Lyle, and Norton add to Joe Frazier's resume?

If you wanted to avoid Ali and maximise your earnings whilst holding the title for 2 years without facing a ranked contender
yes.

 

How do you know he was only 18? That is the whole point. No one knew how old he was. Sorry, but there can be no other way of looking at it. Even if you want to believe he was only 34 - 35 when he fought Ali in 64 that would still make him 38 - 39 if he fought Frazier in 68.

 

why do you choose to interpret me telling you liston has no birth certificate, as me "trying to make you laugh"? why u chose to laugh off the fact? FLOP mate.

 

I'm surprised by some of the answers here. People have accused Frazier many times of having a thin resume, and here we are naming the best available names around that he might have beaten, and people STILL say it wouldn't have helped his resume. Ali and Foreman weren't the only people in the world who counted for something.

 

My point was Sonny was listed as ten years old in the 1940 census, meaning he was according to his family 10 years old. + or 1 a year if you must, he was not 40 when he fought Ali.

1964 - 1930 = 34 years old for the Ali fight.

 

We agree. Frazier's own people didn't want to put him in there with Liston, and he declined the significant invitation to the WBA tournament.

His resume outside of Foreman is void of punchers.

The vast majority agree that Liston, Norton, Lyle, and Shavers would add much to Frazier's legacy myself included.

Unforgiven And Zadfrak don't think so. This to me is a head scratcher as Liston, Shavers, Lyle and Norton would be Frazier's 2nd-6th best win with their placement depending on how you view Quarry. Ali would be Frazier's best win overall.

 

Sonny Liston, though past it, was still a force in the late 60's or at least prior to getting caught by Leotis Martin. Ring had him in their top 10 and he was on a respectable win streak. It would have been a good win for a prospecting Frazier. Shavers was ranked right around #5 or so when Frazier lost to Foreman and Earnie Lost to Quarry and was relatively unknown in most circles. Not sure that it would have added much unless some hindsight benefit came later.. Had he beaten Ken Norton AFTER Ken had beaten Muhammad, then it would have been a good win. Anytime prior to that however and Norton would have been chalked up to being an obscurity. Lyle was never that good in my opinion, but for the win to mean anything it would have needed to take place sometime between 1973-1976.

 

Magoo, Lyle was very good, not great. I think you're selling him short.

He has wins over Shavers ( Did not fight Frazier ), Ellis ( did fight Fraizer ) , Bugner ( did fight Frazier ), and Bonavena( did fight Frazier ).

He holds decent tier two wins over Mathis, who gave Frazier trouble, and Garica, who knocked out Norton.

Lyle almost upset Foreman, flooring him. Something Frazier never came close to doing and was up on points over Ali until round 11 when he was caught by a big right hand. The stoppage was somewhat controversial, as Lyle was on his feet and not close to going down He was covering up, but not throwing back enough.

So you see he'd add something to Frazier's resume.

 

True, but it would again have to depend on the timing of the fight. If Joe fought and beat him in 1975, then it would be a good win.. If he fought him 1972, then not so much.

 

Not me,I think it would have enhanced his standing immensely.

 

Ok, then, so he was at his best when he lost to Marshall.

 

oh i did read bad the thread. it was about frazier, not liston.
oh then it would help pretty much to his resume. specially lyle . it would finish with the myth " frazier avoided punchers who could take a punch"( stupid words, because he faced foreman twice)

 

Were they, though? Lyle and Shavers were both soundly beaten by Quarry who was then soundly beaten by Frazier. Lyle was also later beaten by Frazier's sparring partner Young.

These guys are somewhat overrated, not unlike how Cleveland Williams is from the 60's crop. They were among the best five, six, seven fighters of the mid 70's outside of Ali, Foreman and Frazier. Among the best eight-ten during a five year period in other words. That's solid, but hardly amazing.

But, yeah, after Frazier had beaten Bugner and Quarry in the rematch they were, together with Young, the best out there besides Ali and Foreman.

They'd add a bit. Somewhat like Ruiz and Byrd for Lewis in the other thread. But so would MacFoster and Patterson.

 

Or you could say he was at his best when he rematched Marshall 7 months later " without " the broken jaw.

 

I think the results of his 2 fights with Foreman are what lead posters to believe Durham kept him away from punchers previous to that.:think