if ingo KO'd floyd in the return would the swede be king kong insted of liston?

I dont know what wiliams did to make your "first class crop" when ingo dosnt make your "great heavyweight" clasification of the Liston era.

surly there was no "liston era". it was the patterson-johansson-liston era. In title fights Liston won barely 6 minetes of one way trafic against an intimidated opponent who had already been exposed.

 

Perhaps, but that 1960 knockout by Patterson was one of the most brutal ever and Johansson suffered a severe concussion. I don't think anyone can be certain that such a trauma wouldn't make him far more "chinny" in the future.

 

Williams definitely had mental issues.

 

"Liston in his prime was difficult to put away"

So was Machen.

 

How does this sound

ATG Heavyweight: Liston

Heavyweight Champs: Patterson, Johansson

First Class Contender Crop: Johnson, Folley, Machen, Williams, Moore, Valdes, Dejohn

2nd tier contender crop: Bethea, Summerlin, Cooper, Harris, Cleroux, H Carter, Lavorante, Miteff, Mcmurtry, Erskine, London.

Top Journeyman: Besmanoff, Young J Johnson, Whitehurst, B Hunter, H King, C Powell



Chokelab,

No matter how much you want it to be, Johansson is nowhere near the fighter Liston was.

 

This was directed at me, but comments---

1. No problem with Liston being rated alone at the top, with Patterson and Johansson on a second tier.

2. Why is DeJohn in the top tier? Who was the best fighter he beat other than the close decision over Cleroux?

3. Is Valdes this high off his Liston era performance or off his Marciano era victory over Charles?

4. Lavorante's ko of Folley is far more impressive than anything DeJohn did.

5. Where are George Chuvalo and Doug Jones? And Ernie Terrell?

What period are we talking about, exactly?

 

Let me be more specific 1958-1964.

Doesn't sound right does it? I thought that when I put him up there. I guess I fell in love with his height combined with his left hook.

Yes indeed, but Folley showed a history of being "Chinny' if caught by the wrong punch. it appears to me to be more like a fluke than anything. Lavorante lost to nobody George Logan, and was absolutely battered by a 46 year old Archie Moore who had sharply declined by that point. No doubt Lavorante was a big puncher and it was a big win for archie, but Lavorante was not a world beater. He would go on to get killed by John Riggin shortly afterward.

I think outside of that one nice win(which others have duplicated)...hes fringe at best.

Dejohn from 1958-1960, 3 years was rated in the top 10.

Honestly,

I looked at my list and I was like "How can i possibly have joe erskine and pat mcmurtry rated in the same class as valdes when he easily dismantled them both in one round."

I know needs work. If I combine Valdes whole career together, he is a first tier contender. But taking only 1958-1964 I think he does not make it.

They are going to be on this new, throughly organized list.


Lets try a 3rd rought draft...tell me what you think




ATG Heavyweight: Liston

Heavyweight Champs: Patterson, Johansson

First Class Contender Crop: Johnson, Folley, Machen, Williams, Moore, Terrell,

2nd tier contender crop: Chuvalo, Valdes, Dejohn, Jones, Cooper, Harris, Cleroux, Mildenburger, Lavorante

Fringe Contenders: Bethea, Summerlin, H carter, Miteff, McMurtry, Erkskine, London, Rischer

Top Journeyman: Besmanoff, Young J Johnson, Whitehurst, B Hunter, H King, C Powell



One thing I noticed. Most of the men I grouped into the 2nd tier contender group were rated at least three times in the Ring Magazine annuel top 10 during those 6 years, with the one exception being Valdes who was rated # 2 in 1958, and never cracking the top 10 again.

 

thats a beter list but I would put wiliams in the 2nd teir chuvalo cooper group. didnt chuvalo eventualy beat wiliams much later?

regarding "That seems to be unreasomable and assuming to much". I think it is fair to say the concusion ingo suffered did him no good. For a man who only lost to one guy he suffered premature alziemers in later life -a sure sign damage was done. There have been a lot of boxers who could not hold a shot after one bad knockout. Its not that outrageous. walcot was an older guy but the rematch with marciano proved his punch resistance had gone.

 

"tell me what you think"

1. You have Lavorante listed twice. I would leave him in the 2nd tier myself.

2. I think you did a good job. I wouldn't change anything.

3. *Cleroux is interesting. No real marquee wins I guess, but he is the only man on this list who was never stopped. I wonder if he was even ever off his feet. He also beat Chuvalo two of three and ko'd Harris, plus beating an old Williams. I would place him where you did.

 

CHokelab,

It is pretty simple by Williams is in the first group. Williams knocked out terrell, Miteff, Rischer, Chapman, Drew with Eddie Machen, and gave a Prime Sonny liston his toughest fights. Williams was also rated in the top 5 by Ring Magazine 4 years in a row 1960-1964. From 1958-1964 Williams went 24-3-1(18). He was a big man 6'4 215lb with devastating power and terrific handspeed. He belongs in the first group.

Key word is much later on. He did not beat him in the 1958-1964 time period. Williams was washed up by the time Chuvalo beat him later on.

 

I find it interesting that within a year of Williams blasting away roger rischer in 3 rounds, Rischer went on to become top 10 rated.

 

ATG Heavyweight: Liston

Heavyweight Champs: Patterson, Johansson

First Class Contender Crop: Johnson, Folley, Machen, Williams, Moore, Terrell,

2nd tier contender crop: Chuvalo, Valdes, Dejohn, Jones, Cooper, Harris, Cleroux, Mildenburger, Lavorante

Fringe Contenders: Bethea, Summerlin, H carter, Miteff, McMurtry, Erkskine, London, Rischer

Top Journeyman: Besmanoff, Young J Johnson, Whitehurst, B Hunter, H King, C Powell

 

If Ingo had beaten Patterson in the rematch, it wouldn't have changed history much. The difference is that Sonny would have beaten Ingo for the title, and not Floyd.

In other words, Sonny would have knocked out Ingo in one round to take the title, and he would have knocked out Ingo in one round in the rematch. History would have taken the same course.

 

What makes you so sure?
Ingo would be a more difficult opponent for Liston than Patterson.
He had the punching power to hurt Liston and trained right he could have beaten him.Ingo was at his best form in 1958 against Eddie Machen after that he got lazy.I would even dare to say he trained halfheartly for the 1st Patterson bout.