The crux of the matter is if had Jeffries not retired, not how he looked when he came back from a 5+ year layoff. Dolt.
Fair enough, and i agree. But if you think prime Jeffries is KOd by Norton, Frazier and Foreman, then it makes the thread pointless. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Prime Jeffries was more dominant than the above three fighters, in fact he was more successful in his time than those three were in theirs, so i think it is valid. It is a little unfair, though. Foreman had a l;ot more fights to get back into fighting shape. Let us not forget that, if we consider their first world title fights the comparison, both Fought all time great World champions, with the difference being that Jeffries man was a little higher rated (some would say quite a lot) than Holyfield. Interestingly, after 12 rounds, both had performed pretty similar to each other, being beaten on points by a better fighter, but not knocked out. Why not? The two closest fighters Foreman fought to the 36 year old Corbett was the old Ali and Jimmy Young. Both fighters actually beat Foreman! When Jeffries did finally catch up with Corbett, he finished him! Fitz is just impossible to comprehend. We have never seen such a small fighter be so successful against bigger fighters. If we assume that Fitzsimmons hits that little bit harder than anyone of his size, is that little bit faster than anyone of his size, rolls better with punches than anyone of his size (consider how say Toney has taken superheavyweight punches) etc As Fitz proved he was in his own time, then is it really that inconcievable that he would last 8 rounds with Foreman? In fact who knows maybe the question really should be Can Foreman take the punishment Jeffries took for 8 rounds and still produce enough late round power to KO the little Fitzsimmons. Foreman is better against bigger faster guys, than smaller craftier guys who are difficult to catch. Of course i pick foreman to KO Fitzsimmons, but Fitz is not a total walkover. Fair point.
I would take Jeffries to beat Norton, not sure about Frazier ,I think Frazier is 3 times as good as Sharkey ,bigger by 20lbs ,faster, better defensively, and hit harder, so probably I go with Joe,I think Foreman's underated jab might make the difference against Jeffries,and allow him to control things at mid range,and however strong and durable Jeffries was he could be matched here,and he would take a lot of heavy stuff to get in. I dont think I have been unfair at all ,I have given Jeffries the benefit of coming into these fights without the 3 and a half years break Ali had ,and also he does not have to fight the dozen other fights,with Patterson ,Ellis etc. I put no stock into the fact that Jeffries went into the 15th rd with Johnson, imo Jack carried him for financial reasons[the movie rights] and to inflict some pain on the white man and the baying honky audience. Holyfield in contrast was trying to get rid of Foreman from the out set but could not do it,and it was a much faster pace, for big George to cope with. Corbett's recent record ,going into both the Jeffries fights was pitiful, you cannot compare him with either Ali or Young at that stage ,well not if you aspire to any credibility. Corbett in the first fight had not fought in 2 years,[ he had been retired] ,and had not won a fight in 6 years,he was also conceding 30lbs to Jeffries. In the second fight ,Corbett had one fight in 3 years,[ possibly a fake ],was 36 and conceding 27lbs.To mention his performances in the same breath as Young's, for example, is farcical. Young was 29 in his prime , 213lbs ,4 months earlier he had beaten contender Ron Lyle ,lost a close one with Ali,and would lose a close dec to Norton 8 months after . Jeffrries was dominant in his time because he defended against past it super middles who were coming out of retirement,the afore mentioned twice retired Corbett,a 5'9'' face first Sharkey,and no hopers like Munroe and Finnegan, its not his fault there was a dearth of suitable challengers and he should not be blamed for it, ,but,neither should he be praised, for dominating such sparse pickings. The fact remains, he retired rather than face the man who would have been his most dangerous challenger. Foreman would not have to take 8 rds of punishment from Fitz ,simply because he hit considerably harder than Jeffries ,and would get Fitz out early.
Considering the Jeffries fight videos, I'm not sure how much we can deduce from the Jeffries-Sharkey II footage as to how Jeffries was fighting at the end of his career. Tommy Ryan liked Jeffries to play the wait and counter game. That Jeffries style changed to greater agression under Delaney was commonly noted. What would be very interesting, I think, is if there are any contemporary accounts of Jeffries speed and aggresion in that last (5th) round in his defense against Ruhlin. If there is, that would give us a chance to get a handle on what contemporary descriptions meant, and help put into context descriptions of Jeffries in his rematches with Fitzsimmons and Corbetts, and in his defense agaisnt Munroe. I'll try to give Pollack's book a look over to he if there are any such characterizations of Jeffries fighting in the last round of his defense against Ruhlin.
Ruhlin backpedalled,so Jeffries had to go looking for him.I think it is significant that Ruhlin looks quicker about the ring than Jeffries. Make no mistake, Jeffries was a revelation in his time, but he was fighting smaller men,and for the the most part, men past their best.
Pollack, 'In the Ring ... Jeffries', p. 494, has Delaney saying to The San Francisco Call [Jeffries] was as cool as a cucumber, and fought just as I wanted him to fight. He did not hurry, because he had plenty of time before him. (The fight was scheduled 20 rounds, and stopped by Ruhlin's corner after round This content is protected This content is protected ). ----- Looking at the Jeffries-Ruhlin video, my main impression is that Jeffries could angle/cut the ring a bit better. Jeffries gets in pretty often, though. Ruhlin had been given salts prior to round five, and I think Jeffries was fighting a pace he was confident was going to bring him victory; I don't think he was inclined to rush things and maybe give Ruhlin a chance opening.
It is my understanding that this fight was a draw after 20 rds and not stopped by either corner.Their second fight was stopped between the 5th and 6th rds by Ruhlin's corner.
Quo Oh, OOOOPS!!! atsch I meant it was stopped after round 5 (I meant the championship fight, Jeffries-Ruhlin II). Thanks for the notice, McVey:hi: -- I'll correct my post.