If Liston Had Lived ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Jun 23, 2019.


  1. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

    8,488
    4,274
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 19, 2012
    Liston had a sharp wit. He wasn't educated but he was far from dumb. One of his friends said that Sonny was "a nice guy"...."when he wasn't drinking"
    I've known a few people like that. They go from peaceful to terror and can't get far enough away from them.
     
  2. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,256
    1,164
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 18, 2012
    Liston did nothing as hwt champion to call him great. He quit on his stool giving up the greatest prize in all of sport. Not good! In fact the worst thing a hwt champion can do if he wants to be called great!
     
  3. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    883
    581
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    Liston rep derives from his pre Ali fights.
    Stoppages of
    Kingx2
    Williams x2
    Bethea
    DeJohn
    Mederos
    Valdes
    Harris
    Besmanoff
    Folley
    And a win over Machen are real results.
    Duran quit ,Langford quit,Ali quit, Corbett quit,are they not great?
     
  4. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,256
    1,164
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 18, 2012
    Again you show your ignorance. The hwt championship has always been considered a different case. It’s level of standard expected from a champion very high. A worlds hwt champion holds the greatest title in all of sport. History demands that the top echelon of hwt champion are held to a very high standard and not quitting on your stool giving up that championship is one of them. Please learn more about the history of the sport you claim to follow.
     
  5. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    883
    581
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    You said because he quit he cannot be regarded as a great fighter and I gave you several examples of universally recognized great fighters who quit.here are some more Arguello,Bivins,Lamotta,Cerdan,Robinson,Flowers,Foster,Fullmer,Frazier, Baer.You made a silly statement got called on it and then qualified it by pretending the heavyweight title has some fictitious exclusion from the rest of the weight divisions.
    You're coming off as a butt hurt fool here. Bottom line many great fighters have quit in fights and they are still great fighters.
     
    Knights107, mrkoolkevin and Fergy like this.
  6. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,256
    1,164
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 18, 2012
    Wrong. A worlds hwt champion quitting on his stool giving up the most prized trophy in all of sport as did Liston eliminates him from ATG status. Why? Because you have ATG hwt champions who fought bruising contests as champion AND DID NOT GIVE UP. It would be wrong and a disservice to these ATG champions to put Liston side by side with them.
     
    choklab likes this.
  7. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,256
    1,164
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 18, 2012
    Historically the worlds hwt championship is looking upon differently. A higher standard. Always been the case. Some historians wrote that this is the case because the worlds hwt champion hypothetically is the physical master of all men. With this comes a high standard. STUDY UP!!!!
     
  8. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    883
    581
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    Liston was ranked the number 3 all time heavyweight by Sports Illustrated The number 7 by the Ring in1998 and the number 10 in 2017 Herb Goldman has him in his top 5,
    Emmanuel Steward in his top 10.
    But of course you know best

    You really are insufferable aren't you?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    23,328
    2,811
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 31, 2009
    To be fair Liston only made those higher ratings when he became fashionable again during the Tyson era. For many years, when those were still around that saw him, sonny was often ranked behind people like Gene Tunney and Ezzard Charles. There are many older ATG lists supporting this.

    Like Max Baer, despite his talent the resume and championship form is quite slim and disappointing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  10. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    883
    581
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    In reply to you ,and the self appointed expert above you I give you the Rings last listing which was just 2 years ago 30 experts gave their choices.Among these were
    Tyson
    Lewis
    Teddy Atlas
    Pat Burns
    Virgil Hunter
    Don Elbaum
    Don Turner
    Paulie Mallinagi
    Don Chargin
    Ron Katz
    Jerry Izenberg
    Bobby Goodman
    Steve Lott
    Adam Pollack
    Clay Moyle
    Gareth Davies
    Bob Mee
    Russel Peltz
    Harold Lederman
    Randy Roberts
    Bruce Trampler
    Donald McRae
    Sonny Liston came in at number nine.
    Mike Tyson at number 10
    No input from Perry/Houdini was requested.
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  11. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,256
    1,164
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 18, 2012
    Standards should be set high for worlds hwt champions. Don’t you think? Should a hwt champion who gave up the championship sitting on his stool be ranked side by side with those who refused to quit no matter what? As an example Ali won over historians in his epic battle with Frazier. Many would have quit especially in the mid rounds where Frazier was pushing Ali to the limit. Add to this the heat and humidity. Another from long ago was Jeffries win over Sharkey under hellish conditions at Coney Island NY (current site of the NY Aquarium). Here the skin of both fighters was seared due to the excessive lighting required for filming the bout. A quitter who could not care less for his championship should be ranked shoulder to shoulder with Jeffries and Ali? No emphatically.
     
    choklab likes this.
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    23,328
    2,811
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 31, 2009
    Like I said Liston became fashionable again. For the first 15 years after his death Sonny was not in vogue with the historians and magazines.

    He was absent from top ten lists throughout the 1970s. Yet (whilst still being dead) sonny moved up the ranks in the 1980s even though more champions were eligible.
     
  13. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    883
    581
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    Standards are the same for ALL professional fighters they all compete under the same rules.
    Liston fought and won a fight with a broken nose,he continued in a fight with a broken jaw .only to lose a split decision .

    30 experts say you are WRONG and recognize Liston as a great fighter.Think about that for a while! And the fact that Jeffries doesn't make their top ten!
     
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    23,328
    2,811
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 31, 2009
    No the culmination of 30 people with equal credentials in boxing history as most people on this forum include Sonny in a top ten. He makes their joint number 9 which means some didn’t rate him that high and some rate him higher. That’s not 30 experts saying somebody is wrong to include him at all. he barely made their ten.

    I rate him number 13. I imagine some experts agree with 13 and some experts disagree with this. An expert is only somebody who read all of the same books and watched the same fights.

    One thing is certain he was definitely at one time, hands down, the best heavyweight in the world, so he deserves to be, at worst, midway up a list that includes all the champions since some who held the title were never regarded as the worlds best.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  15. Knights107

    Knights107 Member Full Member

    337
    100
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 13, 2015
    It's not shame quit againsts prime ali..

    Did joshua quit? Againsts who?
     


Sign up for ESPN+ and Stream Live Sports! Advertisement