Probably fair points. Perhaps it gives us a deeper insight into the actual fight between Ali and George. Ali took some hellacious shots to the body and wore some bombs to the head as well. Maybe it wasn't quite as comfortable and inevitable in there as he made it look.
How many slick world class boxers were there about? Can we expect him to have a trio of world class slick clever boxers when they are rare as hens teeth in the more modern heavyweight division? On top of this tho obviously lower class fighters what do we know about 30+ opponents pre Frazier? How many movers were in there? Did some run for their life? Did he cut them off? It's obvious Foreman is pacing himself against Young trying to box more and technical changes had been made as well. Bringing his feet closer together trying to shorten up his left hook etc. Clancy was a bad fit for George and was more suited with boxer types. There were also mistake sin camp. Clancy told George he needed 3 weeks to acclimatize to the heat but foreman did his own thing. He'd also bought in some also ran to help train and by all accounts he was a disturbance both in training and in the corner. He'd taught Foreman all sorts of dirty tricks and you can see that in full flight throughout the bout to the degree a point was deducted. That was all Foreman's fault of course. Even with all that going on Foreman had him completely out on his feet in i think the 7th round but lacked the sharpness to complete the job. A single left hook started it. Credit to Young tho Foreman went right after him. A fresh aggressive Foreman in the early rounds would have been a harder proposition. Young was indeed hard to get out of there tho Shavers did take him out in their first bout. Young was green to be fair and drew him in the rematch despite being dropped. He's awkward. I'd like to have seen what would have transpired if he was not cut against Cooney. One can pick a Peralta out of just about anyone's record. Green went the distance against a rampaging Tyson 6 months before he pumped Berbick. A shopworn Tillis on a three fight losing streak took him 10 the fight before. Liston, Shavers, Louis, they all had them. That's boxing. Foreman had 15 fights under his belt for their first bout and was years off winning the title. Even so Foreman won easily on the cards. 15 months later he stopped him late. Foreman is actually the only heavyweight to ever stop Peralta. He actually drew Bonavena over 10 and as a 38yo at the close of his career he lost over 10 to Lyle and then beat him overt 10. The guy could fight and was as tough as an old shoe, from the old days. He hadn't been beaten for over 30 fights coming into a green Foreman bout. It's actually a solid win for George with all considered and any sort of context.
These are very good points. I have studied Peralta, and his performances with Bonavena, Lyle and Foreman should not be dismissed. However, given the weight and style of the very seasoned Peralta there should be scope for some of the earlier champions to do as well as Peralta did against Foreman. Certainly better than given credit for. Was Braddock so far away from Peralta? Jimmy was a tough veteran fighter of the same mould as Peralta and in his losing effort to Joe Louis Braddock certainly showed the kind of resilience to trouble great fighters in a losing effort.
Context chok, context. Naughty, naughty. You know full well Foreman took him on is his 16th and 28th fights. Frazier was almost 2 years and 9 fights away and Foreman had improved loads by then. Peralta also did not win many rounds. The thread topic is "prime" Foreman. 24 fights deep Joe Louis was getting beaten down by Schmeling, do you see me thrusting this version of Louis forward in fantasy matches? 19 fights deep Tyson was struggling with a a shopworn Tills. The list goes on. In his 20th fight Braddock fought a guy 1-8-2. His record was 50-25-7 by the time he beat a disinterested Baer for heavens sake. Every man and their dog had beaten him and by joves have a look at some of them. This is in his prime where at one stage he had about 5 wins in 18 fights. Foreman would belt the living christ out of Braddock lets be honest.
I get what you mean. I just think his tendency to stand flat footed right in front of the opponent and then reacting is more dangerous than being proactive and constantly making yourself an elusive target like Young or Ali. I think Johnson would be playing with fire, especially with his hands down stance. I don't think Foreman would "Easily" overpower and shove Johnson, but based on styles and physical proportions, a cagey flat footed guy who likes to wrestle can't operate without constantly stepping into the danger zone against Foreman. On paper, that's very dangerous even if Johnson has great defense. I mean saying he'd move in and out were your words, I was just responding. Hard to envision anyone getting away with "smothering" Foreman. Johnson doesn't jab enough when he tries to step in, doesn't seem to have good enough/consistent enough head movement to dodge as he steps in, and is giving up anywhere from 10-20 lbs in weight and 2-3 inches in height and reach. Yes Foreman wasn't that refined, but literally dozens of fighters like Frazier, Gullick, Chuvalo, Qawi, Cooper, etc all tried smothering Foreman and they all got manhandled. Foreman simply doesn't allow people to do this to him. He's like the anti-smotherer. Yeah but he had that habit and kept his hands down a lot. Even a guy with fast hands might get clipped with that stance, especially if he's flat footed and the opponent has a reach advantage. Prime Foreman didn't throw a lot of straight punches other than his jab, he turned over looping shots to track opponents as they moved. He walked guys into shots. Ok, let's say give him the benefit of the doubt and say Johnson's strength is an 8 and Foreman's a 10. Combine that with his clinching ability and defensive skill and on paper Johnson can definitely hang with him on the inside. The question that keep coming up is how Johnson is going to get inside in the first place. I'm fully aware Frazier had a different style, but both him and Johnson liked to get inside. Frazier was perhaps the best pure pressure fighter at HW and he couldn't do it, even with his great bobbing and weaving. Johnson's head movement and stepping in weren't nearly as good as Frazier's. So I'm just asking how Johnson gets past the sledgehammer jabs, uppercuts, shoving, and matador like repositioning.
He usually beat the opponent to the punch and stopped them from getting inside to clinch in the first place. Had a sledgehammer jab, powerful uppercut, and constantly pushed people back. Even if you did get inside he had nasty kidney punches, blows to the solar plexus, etc.
@Fergy Does Foreman get to go back in time and fight Johnson while wearing 12 oz gloves, so as not to hurt his hands, in a 65 degree arena, so as not to get too hot, or does he have to fight under the same conditions as that era?
Ali had no obligation to give him a discretionary bout, and he couldn’t have in 1975 if he wanted to, as George took off from his defeat in Zaire in October of 1974, till January of 1976 when he returned to fight Ron Lyle. https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1975 After the Lyle battle, Foreman was ranked #4 behind Young,Frazier and Norton. But then, George sent #3 Frazier to retirement and Ali beat #2 Jimmy Young. So that means Foreman finally became Ali's mandatory challenger after the champion retained his title after his third fight with the #1 ken Norton. Ali had one year to fight him as the mandatory contender. So George could have gotten the rematch and ali could have waited until the fall of 1977 to give foreman a title shot. In overral, foreman managed to rise in the ratings, waited for the rematch, signed to fight Jimmy Young, probably a warm up, in early 1977, but got his behind whooped and retired.
According to a video I saw (I have to find it again), after winning the vacant NABF title in the Lyle fight Foreman should have been a mandatory challenger. Especially because he was the former champ with only 1 defeat. It made no sense that he beat Lyle and Frazier and somehow didn't get a shot but Frazier did. The Young fight was simply a convenient excuse and technically shouldn't have even happened.
I would think that sounds best all round, giving them time to get used to each other's ruling. For them to wear what they would in their time line.
I dont see him beating Jack to the punch , Johnson was a master feinter and very rarely did you see his opponent punch him first . I think once Johnson ties him up hes in trouble , Foreman kind of just stood there when he was tied up.Plus Johnson is the absolute best at jab through guards, Ketchel had his hand to catch jabs and was stilling eating them. I do not think Johnson knocks out foreman nor does he play with him like he did Burns . But the hands on the bicep thing will Foreman in a world of trouble .
Like i said, he had to rise in the ratings and, logically by beating the higher ranking Frazier and Lyle whereas Ali dealt with Young and Norton, when the house has been cleaned, it was Foreman's time to shine a second time, but then again ali had no obligation to fight him till 1 year later after George became the 1# contender. (In this case if he didn't he would be stripped of his titles) But Foreman, 6-5 months after he was named the mandatory challenger, took a fight with Young and you know the rest. As for frazier, i want you to take a look at this: https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1974 Foreman was ranked #1 after Ali awarded him his first career loss, a rematch could have happened at that time, but George took off from his defeat in Zaire in October of 1974, till January of 1976 when he returned to fight Ron Lyle. In the rules of all four sanctioning bodies, the only mandatory defense a champ must make is to the #1 contender, or highest available contender if the #1 contender is not available. #1 foreman was not there, so ali had to give #2 Joe Frazier a title shot. That's how Joe got one instead of George.
I'm still trying to figure out how Johnson is going to clinch Foreman and just do what he wants when he's giving up anywhere from 15-25 lbs and is being pushed back whenever he attempts to get close. Foreman didn't just stand there, he threw vicious body shots.