Ike Ibeabuchi vs Jack Dempsey

If Ike were just some strapping lug from the local Gold's Gym, I would totally agree with the above. But Ike understood his trade, knew how to hit, how not to get hit and most importantly, how to take getting hit. For however brief his career, he knew how to stay focussed, get in fighting trim and prepare for combat. He had the necessary tools and preparation, and fighting talent, to exploit the great physical assets he possessed.

If people are going to rely on the "greatness" of certain fighters in these discussions, I must question who that greatness was measured against in actual practice. If the best you come up with is the heavyweight version of Tommy Gibbons, Carpentier, Firpo and a stale old Willard, I question how elastic that term "greatness" is and how much of the peripherals to the sport account in its computation.

 

I gave you rational level. No response from you. As the last time when I calculated in detail why there are walking more taller heavier more skilled man on earth and find their way into boxing nowadays. Once again, highly ontopic tagged:

I´m approving the same standards like the recognition of weightclasses, when its totally normal to consider differences of about 8 pounds as beeing relevant for fighters, but utterly deny any weight-differences when it comes to heavyweights. In other words: Its totally brain dead. Makes no sense, absolutely nilch.

The fighters back then did not fight in a heavyweight devision, it was indeed a 190lb Cruiser Devision, some fighters even less, some fighters a little more, avaraging below 190lb for Joe Louis, Dempsey and Marciano. Its a fact. Similarly, their resume is not made of the same numbers equal to the heavyweight devision above the 80s. Mostly, you can devide it by 4-5, or even more: They rarely fought a big man with skill. Avarage men were shorter and lighter these days, earths population was below 3 billion. We have been through all of this dozens of times. I´m tired of repeating my self for things every child could understand.

And yes, a fighter can overcome a weight disadvantage with the suitable stylistic matchup and skill.

But putting a small fighter relying on sharp power (or plodding stamina wear you down power: Dempsey, Marciano or Frazier) against iron chinned even more power fighters like Tua and Ibeabuchi, who demonstrably brawled out 12 high pace frightening rounds for a new record, is hard to beat in any therms of logic.
Especially for fighters who evidently had problems with good moving fighters, always coming forward with nearly nobody matching them in power for a brawl in modern times. But yes, I guess Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier would stick and move their way to a decision too

@choklab: You´d recognize Fulton had already four losses to nobodys the time Ibeabuchi was unbeaten, beating the **** out of fighters, ending fights with bodyshots? How many times did he get knocked out in his 17 losses? Does he have any ability comparable to Ibeabuchi too? Its the same as always, putting random oldschool fighters on the same platform as fighters extremely proven in special abilites.....

 

Once again (!) the entirety of your comment can, without exaggeration, be distilled simply to "190 pounds" with exactly nothing of substance or subtlety lost.
What a waste of electricity. I suggest you henceforth simply copy and paste these nine characters whenever you feel compelled to "comment".

 

Jesus ****ing christ!

One fighter has more baseline ability in the weightclass, aka taking heavy punches and applying heavy punches than the other. The other fighter is no boxing decision master, relying himself on overpowering his opponents. What the hell is gonna happen? You want to know? The less power, less chin boxer has to move away and box to a decision. If not, he goes toe to toe, goes into a shell and caving in to the more powerful boxer. What we know is, Ike gives a **** about bombs, continuing bombing with his own leather.
The style to beat a guy like that is maching him in power and chin, or moving and outboxing him, since Ibeabuchi looked a little plodding at times.
Dempsey couldn´t do both!

 

Perhaps, but Dempsey was a far superior finisher than either of them.

This is the bottom line!

 

Firstly you are starting with a massive assumption here.

Secondly, even if it is correct, it doesn't quite vindicate your position.

You are not arguing the opposite of Jack Dempsey beating Lennox Lewis, you are arguing the opposite of Luther McCarthy beating Lennox Lewis!

Even assuming that Jack Dempsey's era was superior, doesn't quite get you there!

 

Dempsey was a sharper puncher, like Hide was also in that division. What happened to Hide? Caved in to the more chin more powerful boxer (twice), even if he was the quicker sharper puncher either vs Bowe and Klitschko. You are not gonna beat this guys that way, even if you punch as quick as Robinson.
Dempsey was a terrific sharp puncher, but his power is not up to the biggest modern boys. One of these guys bomb Williard out cold, letting him get up maybe two times. That´s it....

 

Exactly. And he had double the fights. Proving himself over and over again. Amazing large and knowledgeable crowds.

 

Yes but Hide had durability issues, while Dempsey did not.

What if there had been a fighter like Hide, with the chin of a Holyfield say?

You are basing this assumption on what piece of evidence from the real universe exactly?

 

“for however brief his career”! Ike was matched competitively perhaps twice in his twenty or so fights. I get how he understood his craft. I liked his defence and his rhythm. His technique had been taught and mastered. I liked that about him. It looked promising. But that’s just it. Promising. He looked promising. You can’t go out on a limb with promising. If you get the eye from a lady in a bar that’s promising. Nobody knows if it is going to move from promising to fulfilling.

but Ike was mostly a strapping lug from the local golds gym. Let’s face it. Sure he boxed well. Nice moves in two fights against two men. One a year from his prime the other ate himself out of a shot at greatness.

I’m not knocking the era of fighters Ike fought in. I am knocking the lack of fighters ike fought from that era he fought in.

It’s one thing to mock the opposition of another era but you can’t knock the domination of that era. All anyone can do is dominate. What did Ike dominate?

 

In that case, Hide yould be a very very good fighter. Dempsey got KO1 by a Fireman. Knocked out of the ring once again? What about Ibeabuchi vs. one of the most teriffic punchers in Tua, NOT AVOIDING his punches, fighting toe to toe?

You´d watch the Willard fight? How many times got willard dropped? Knocked out by a 2-3 nobody too? Are you saying Dempsey hits as hard as Tua and Ibeabuchi?
In therms of physics, you know which parameters influence the impact of a physical body?

 

And once again, there is nothing to finish for Dempsey, since Ibeabuchi has a rocksolid jaw!

 

Your point was crystal clear.

 

so what was the division called then? America dominated the heavyweight division. It is an open weight class and that nation produced the worlds tallest people.

so the big guys back then had no skill? All those great trainers were of absolutely no benefit to tall fighters? The big men back then had to train like everyone else did. They followed a boxing programme. No strength and diet coaches coming in to convert thin armed long necked farm boys into the better proportioned body builders of modern times.

even today only 1% of men are over 6’4”. The same ratio existed back then -and America had the worlds tallest people.

oh iron chinned fighters like Tua and Ibeabuchi. Tua went down as having a decent ish chin. But what is Ibeabuchis iron chin based on? The fact he went twelve fast paced rounds of a fight that anybody in boxing can see that the two were NOT sitting down on their shots? which is why it was entertaining, action packed memorable fight where neither guy had so much as a blemish on their faces.

please list the merits of the men Ike was as you say “beating the **** out of fighters, ending their fights with body shots” were they world rated men?

please give a list longer than two fighters that prove Ike Ibeabuchi was extremely proven on a higher platform? Let’s see what you come up with. Marion Wilson and Everton Davis?

 

There have been serious doubts raised about whether the Flynn KO was on the level, but even if we assume that it was, Dempsey was just a local level fighter at the time.

So that leaves us with a fighter who was stooped once in 70 known fights, and that being back when he was a nobody.

Obviously an exceptional chin.

Ike obviously had an outstanding chin, but it would have been interested to see it tested by a more nuanced puncher, like Tyson or Lewis.

Dempsey probably did not hit harder than Tua, but he was a much more clinical finisher, than either Tua or Ibeabuchi.

Just because he can do something, doesn't mean that they can do it.