Ingemar Johansen vs Cleveland Williams

Who is the more accomplished fighter is not he subject of the thread,it's about h2h ,and who you pick to win?

Ingo looked very impressive in sparring for Floyd 1. but it was behind closed doors. Ali was a kid when he embarassed Ingo.Ali hardly threw a punch , he just made Ingo look awful and Ali was never very impressive in sparring I know he didn't look much when I saw him. Terrell was kod how many times when prime?Try ONCE.Guess who by.

 

Terrell was not a puncher what does that prove? It's a silly comparison
Williams was a faster puncher than Liston, he had no trouble hitting Floyd in 2 blow outs. Ingo did ko Patterson, he was also kod by him twice and most emphatically. I dont think Ingo would duplicate the ko over Machen again and he reneged on a contract for a return match. Ingo hit Machen with everything including the kitchen sink before he stopped him.How many times did he have Floyd down before he finally to stopped him? To answer your last question Mac Foster, Gerry Cooney ,Tommy Morrison.Donovan Ruddock.

 

I think you are seriously underestimating Ingo. He was more than the bingo, he was awkwardly effective, cunning, patient, disciplined to a game plan and a great finisher. Williams could beat him, sure, but 10 to one against for me.

 

If he's that great a finisher how come it took him so long to stop a concussed Floyd ? Even with a blatant rabbit punch when Floyd was looking out at the crowd. Watch him against Machen,count how many shots he lands before he stops him, the referee should have been banned after that performance.

 

Floyd took some stopping actually.
He finished them, period. It does not matter how many punches it takes.

 

Gerry Cooney signature win could be Ken Norton. A scary knockout of a still decent veteran or Jimmy Young a tough veteran journeyman at that time who nobody else could stop at that time.

Tommy Morrison could be the tough win over Joe Hipp, the fast demolition of a faded Thomas or the get off the floor win over Truth Williams? Or George Foreman? Take your pick.

Ruddock? Dead easy Mike Dokes. That win made him. Scary win and Dokes was giving Holyfeild life and death.

Mac Foster? I will be honest, I never saw the big deal with him. but even bigmac flattened Zora Foley right when Foley was where satterfeild was when Williams went tits up in his step up fight.

None of these guys flunked a fight like Williams did against 7-3 Sylvester Jones. It was not even a learning fight. This was a showcase for williams on the big polo grounds night when Marciano rematched lastarza. 7-3 Sylvester Jones was hand picked to make 27-0 Williams look fantastic. The difference was Sylvester might have been nobody but he was not manufactured like Williams was at that point. He was not matched to look like king Kong in the Blackwoods he was taking what fights he could get in New York like thousands of others. He'd been knocked out twice, nobody jones fought had a name but there were no baby booze or graveyard Walters types paddling things for him like Williams was getting. Jones battered Williams. Knocking him down twice. Sylvester Jones upset the kid. Sure there was a rematch. Sure Williams got revenge but Jones was just a regular preliminary filler fighter. He was never matched to go 10 rounds. Retired 11-6-1. Just 17 fights in ten years.

 

Actually it does if he was a great finisher by definition he gets them out quick .

 

Semantics maybe but "finisher" means just that, quick is irrelevant, if you get them going you make sure, that's all.
I actually liken Williams to Ruddock. a la the two gallant Tyson/Liston losing fights made their rep. Except Razor has more to back it up.

 

Oh please, Norton and Young were relics, Norton was 37 and kod by every big puncher he met.Young retired with a cut eye. Williams always was chinny. Hipp was a journeyman .Dokes was a 240lbs coked up greaseball,he weighed 25lbs more than when he had fought Evander a year earlier Thomas was gone.Foreman was an old man.


Those aren't signature wins for Christ sake.
If Williams was matched so carefully how come he was put in as a late sub with 51 fight Bob Satterfield when he was just 20 years old?
All those guys were punchers without a win over a prime class heavyweight.

Williams has a ko over Terrell who no one else ever stopped in his prime.A few months after Willams stopped him Terrell was no 3 in the world.That's his signature win.
Or you could have his ko over no 7 rated Miteff.
Williams was just 20 when he lost to Jones and he stopped him less than a year later.

If his resume looks thin well 2 years of your prime hospitalized with a 357 magnum bullet in your stomach wall will do that to you.
What's Ingo's excuse?

How come there's no
Folley
Liston
Valdes
Miteff
Dejohn
Harris
Satterfield
On his resume?

 

McVey, if ever I get to retire, I'll wait up all night debating with you! Might need a bottle of poteen to sustain me though.
Just watched Ali-Williams. I know he was shot(!) but he sure was game and brave.

 

I just hope I'm still around when you do.:good

I used to drink that stuff in the rigging loft at work, the Irish guys used to bring it in.Went in smooth but after a few seconds it felt like you had swallowed a box of lighted matches. My partner's family come from Cork,
There O' Reagan's. I had a lovely girlfriend when I was a lad she lived in Arklow, Co Wicklow, terrific place.I remember getting off the train and asking where the Ryan's lived, guy started laughing ,he said "their all called Ryan round here Mate!"

ps. How is that other project coming along?

 

Not too bad, about half way! life and wasting time with you guys slowing me down, but what the hell. You seem to like a "bit of Irish!"
They used to say if you threw a stone in Tipperary you'd hit a Ryan!
PS he probably sais "Their all called Ryan around here, me Buckoo!"

 

I loved Ireland, worked in Athlone for a while.Nora probably has 10 kids now.Oh well, things turned out alright for me.
:good

 

Good for you. I'm from poor Mayo meself. Just watched a clip of Patterson-Moore right now and is it me or can heavyweights not box any more or is it-probably the truth-that sheer bulk and heavy power neutralized all skill and dynamic power that the likes of Patterson had.
I mean if fighters like Holy, Byrd, Jones, Toney came in at their prime SPEED weight, would the behemoths just blow them away, serious question. They cant all be stupid, they must know from sparring that skill and speed wont do the trick? I want the answer to be no but my brain says otherwise.

 

I look at the likes of Arreolla as journeymen,Wach, Panneta or whatever he was called have zero talent just size.Its a dismal division now imo.