Is Benny Leonard in your top 10 p4p list?

Very verrrry good list.

Thanks for volunteering it and it's nice to see that I pretty much have the same/similar fighters in there.

I rank Charles and possibly Pep higher than Duran - Charles has the Moore wins, wins against serious MW/LHWs and significant victories above LHW - Pep has a great record and looks superb on film. Beating Saddler is arguably as hard or even harder to do than Duran who battered Palomino beating Leonard.

I see Duran and Pep as interchangeable.

Floyd Mayweather in the top 15 - I can see so on skills, not necessarily on comparative résumé.

I feel like Gans, Jofre, Tunney and a few others are competing for those spots between 12 - 20. The margins are razor thin and I don't tend to do definitive lists, rather I tend to see the fighters in tiers of eliteness.

 

So I was researching some of Harry Greb's opponents yesterday. Guys like Young Ahearn, Frank Mantell, Owen Phelps, Buck Crouse, Jackie Clark, Bryan Downey and Augie Ratner. You know, like an ordinary guy in his early 20's would. And some of these fighters, or even some guys that they beat, had wins over Jack Britton. Some of them like Downey even split series with him, ending up as 2-2.

Welsh aside, I think the Britton trilogy is easily the 2nd biggest factor in Leonard's greatness. And the thing about him is that his career is so huge that I never actually did proper research on him due to it's sheer scale. I just know of his rivalry with Lewis, his major opponents, that he's a consensus top 5 Welterweight and stuff like that. I haven't actually sat down to properly assess his career. I think I might do it now.

Prepare for a potential "Jack Britton is a ****ing fraud" thread if he disappoints me.

 

This is a fine list, imo, Noel. No one out of place and none of the omissions are a lock for the top 15.

If you haven't already, you may enjoy a deep dive into researching Mickey Walker and/or Packey McFarland. They're my #12 and #14 respectively, and the highest on my list that dont appear in your 15.

 

I suspect you'll rate him pretty highly, IT.

He's my #5 all time at WW and I tend to have a slight bias towards dominance in my ranking criteria, whereas I get the impression dominance/losses don't factor as highly for you, with quality of win resume being by far and away the most factor.

The more you understand about the landscape of that era, the more impressive Britton's win resume becomes, particularly if you value multiple wins over the same (world class) opponents highly.

 

Thanks very much for your very kind comments Greg,it means a lot coming from you.I have Mickey Walker @ 17 and McFarland @20

 

Yeah I don't think I'm not gonna rank him as an ATG or anything. Just really curious to finally unpack that gigantic, meaty, unsexy mess of a career. It's a big key to unlocking Leonard too, which is huge.

I'm nowhere near done, but I've already found stuff that I didn't expect. Unexpected success at a very old age and genuinely baffling losses. Those 1 in a million type of losses. I probably will drop an entire thread when I'm done.

 

I'll look forwards to that thread with interest.

 

A good question, he was a great of his era and fought some great fighters, but did he ever fight anyone of the calibre of a Duran or a Williams or a Gans?

 

Some would have Freddie Welsh above Williams at LW. Most would have him close.

Jack Britton can be ranked higher at WW than Williams is at LW, as well as higher p4p.

Did Duran, Gans or Williams ever beat a LW as great as Benny Leonard?

Did any go 81-0 in every fight they ever contested below 140lbs from the age of 20 onwards, like Leonard did?

 

I wouldn’t put them over Williams personally. I have Benny as a top 3 or 4 lightweight, at worst, but think I’d have Duran and Gans over him in a top ten, but could understand him being in a top ten, he might even be in mine still

 

Jack Britton ranks #38 p4p all time here - https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/the-top-100-pound-for-pound-all-time-greats.459918/ - with Williams #46 and Welsh #59. I think that qualifies as similar calibre.

Certainly in Welsh, Leonard beat a greater LW than Duran, Gans or Williams ever did.

 

Robinson
Duran
Armstrong
Charles
Ali
Greb
Pep
Moore
Gans
Leonard

I think is a credible list with Benny, but it would be just as credible to take him out and put in say, Langford.
The first five or 6 for me arent moving, but Benny is in the ‘probably’ area

 

I like Benny, but don’t believe he could beat Ray Leonard, or Duran himself at their bests

 

Benny Leonard is too P4P 10 all-time in my opinion. He’s the greatest lightweight of all time and that’s arguably the deepest of all divisions so just on that basis he deserves his place.

 

No ones does they just sprout whatever nonsense makes them look like they do and then pretend they know more then they really do. Its all subjective nonsense ranking fighters based on made up criteria.