Is Canelo the Greatest Super Middleweight of all time?

Canelo has major problems when the other guy is faster than him. Granted, few are - but when they are he looks pedestrian. There's a reason he aged out ggg

 

I’ve just never understood it.

Yeah, I saw that.

The build up was good.

Yes, Toney looked great against Williams and Littles, and he came in just under the limit for Littles.

 

Though I don't feel the case for Canelo is a strong one at present, I can agree with the above.

 

No, it's not that simple at all. It's obvious you don't know the details of what happened. I do, Loudon does too. Please see these links so you understand. I'm not saying Toney was weight drained to take anything away from Roy's win, but if we're going to compare Roy's win over Toney to Canelo's win over GGG, and with so many people trying to use GGG's age to take away from Canelo's win, then we need to also look at the other side of that coin. What you want to do is ignore Toney's condition, which was a documented case, to give RJJ full credit, then at the same time use GGG's age despite having no weight issues or visible health problems (unlike Toney) as a mens to discredit what Canelo did to GGG. No one dominated GGG like Canelo did. Beating even a 40 year GGG in the way he did, by dominating him is a far better win that most people are acting like it is. Beating Toney how RJJ did is being overrated, because people are ignoring the poor condition James was in due to the weight cut.

I'm a RJJ fan, so I have no reason to discredit his win over Toney, but if we're going to act like RJJ's win over Toney is way better than Canelo's win over GGG, that's showing extreme bias because you are completely ignoring how weight drained Toney was and how much easier that made it for RJJ to do what he did. A full strength Toney from a couple years earlier would have given RJJ fits. It's basically the same thing that GGG fans say about what would have happened if Canelo would have fought a "Prime" 32 yo GGG instead of a "past prime" 35-36 year old GGG. Most of this forum is sure that "Prime" GGG would have beaten Canelo. Barkley version of Toney could have beaten RJJ, it's just that by the time Toney fought RJJ he wasn't taking care of his body, he was overweight and had to cut massive amounts of weight. James was a shell of himself vs RJJ, and the fact that he still was able to go 12 with RJJ in that condition was not easy.

See Links :

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...drain-during-james-toney-vs-roy-jones.300595/

Toney would venture one last time to 168, and particularly for this fight he cut from 214 to 167, which is an astonishing 47 lbs, and rehydrated to 186 (19 lbs) while hooked up to an IV overnight.

People are trying to act like RJJ beating a James Toney who cut from 214 to 167 in a matter of weeks while hooked up to an IV overnight is a better win than a 40 yo, healthy, fit GGG just coming off a KO win, that's ridiculous. 40 yo GGG would have destroyed "that" version of Toney.

https://13thround.substack.com/p/when-james-toney-almost-ruled-at

In late 1994, Toney - then-IBF super-middleweight champ - defended against the IBF’s middleweight kingpin Roy Jones Jr. Both undefeated, both leading lights in the pound-for-pound discussions at the time, this was a fight which in hindsight matched up two all-time greats - but it was not an all-time great fight. Toney struggled to boil down to the 168-pound weight limit, and that was clearly visible on the night. Facing a fighter with the ability to exploit these training issues, Toney struggled throughout and Jones dominated the entire fight, utilising speed and skill to avoid occasional flurries and achieve a virtual shutout points win.

https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/roy-jones-or-james-toney/158058

Toney showed up weight drained in ’94, the effects of dropping anything from 15 to twenty pounds leaving him depleted. But this wasn’t Jones’ fault.

Of course, it wasn't Jones fault that Toney was weight drained, but James poor condition and massive weight cut needs to be pointed out if we're going to compare that win to Canelo over GGG or other ATG SMW victories.

 

Well I'm not saying it is a better win or it isn't, I'm saying it's very debatable. Both were great wins on paper. But James condition after having to make such a massive weight cut was worse than GGG's condition at 40.

Both GGG at 40 and James at 26 had about the same # of fights. James actually had more at 26. James blew up in weight and had to struggle to cut to 168 to fight RJJ, whereas GGG had an easy time moving up a weight class. GGG didn't have to cut weight at all. All I'm saying is GGG had a much easier time moving up to 168 at 40 than James did at 26 when he had to cut weight to fought RJJ. I don't think many people realize this, or really think about it critically. I don't care how young you are, James was not as discipline outside of the ring as GGG, he had bad habits and he blew up in weight after that fight he had before fighting RJJ. I'm sorry but that was not Prime Toney. That was a severely weight drained Toney that RJJ fought. You cannot compare that version of James to previous better versions of James. Compared to Toney against RJJ, GGG looked very strong and ready before Canelo GGG 3. GGG for some odd reason just decided to do nothing for the first 8 rounds, he fought scared which was surprising, but his condition and his ability to take a punch, his recuperative powers that night were all far better than Toney against RJJ. A lot of that had to do with how great RJJ was that night, but that was only part of the equation. Toney was like a fish out of water.

So what I'm saying is that which is a better win, Canelo over 40 yo GGG or RJJ over a severely weight drained Toney is very debable. I strongly disagree that RJJ beating weight drained Toney is "clearly" the better win as you are making it out to be. 40 yo GGG was in better condition than James was vs RJJ and that needs to be considered. Also it's very debable who was a better Middleweight, GGG in his prime or Toney in his prime. Further Toney had horrible habits and ballooned up in weight and ended up as a Heavyweight. Imagine GGG as Heavyweight, it would never happen because he's disciplined unlike James when it comes to weight.

 

I think you are missing the main gist of what Dynamicpuncher is getting at here though - regardless of Toneys weight issues that surfaced after the fight, the peeception at the time was hugely different - Toney v RJJ was more like Spence v Crawford with opinion divided abd being deemed close to a 50/50 fight. Canelo v GGG was nothing like that, with no one really giving GGG anything more than a hail mary KO chance; on the contrary, many were predicting a Canelo stoppage. Adfitionally the natures of the victories were markedly different. Canelo did NOT look great against GGG, especially in the last 4 rounds. GGG looked every one of his 40 years.

 

Which is why I pick Pacquiao to tee off on and stop 152 Clenelo. He was so drained that Floyd busted his face up and could have gotten him out of there if he had pressed on the gas.

 

I'm going with Ward. His wins were mostly against prime or near prime fighters. Calzaghe had more dominate wins but I have a hard time rating somebody as the best when their wins were all on the downward slide.

 

Being weight drained has nothing to do with the fact that clearly when Jones fought Toney, he was the number 1 man at Super Middleweight and had been fighting at that weight class for numerous years. Toney was coming off some of his best wins prior to to Jones fights vs Williams, Littles, so where's this evidence that the fights had caught up to Toney ? or he was having major issues making weight ? there's certainly no evidence in Toney's performances to back up your claim.

Where as we actually have evidence of Golovkin looking less than convincing vs Murata, Derevyanchenko, where most people thought he looked his age, that's why Canelo was so heavily favoured to beat Golovkin in their 3rd meeting, where as most people saw Jones vs Toney as a pick em fight.

You keep making such a big deal out of the weight taking any credit away from Jones's performance, when really your only speculating how much it effected Toney's performance, Roy Jones Jr was absolutely on fire that night and would of beaten pretty much any Super Middleweight past or present that night. So i think we should actually give Jones the credit for beating a highly rated undefeated great fighter in Toney.

Jones beating P4P number 3 44-0 number 1 ranked Super Middleweight -----> Canelo beating a past it 40 year old moving up to Super Middleweight.

 

Spot on that's exactly what i'm saying thank you.

 

13 pagesssssssss........... how da heckkkkk

 

Dumb ass trolls like you and Shadow obviously...

 

Someone didnt eat this morning. Youre not yourself when your 'Hangry Lance', have a snickers!

 

35-36 year old GGG did beat canelo not his fault judges are crooked..

 

Uh...beaten by a super featherweight...should have 5-6 losses on his record...busted for PEDs...

No. Several were better.