Is it possible Monzon is overrated ? S.I. Vault article rips him ..

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by he grant, Nov 28, 2019.


  1. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'll answer this question the same way I always do. If you have Monzon as a Top 3 MW of all time, you're not overrating him. If you have him as your no. 1 h2h MW of all time, you're overrating a decent amount.
     
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  2. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    I think Hagler's competition was much better .. Monzon beat a faded Benvenuti who's prime was at 154, a faded Griffith who's prime was at 147 and who many feel won the rematch, a blown up 35 year old Napoles and a still very tough but beatble Briscoe and Valdez ... I'd say Hagler beat Duran more decisively than Monzon did Griffith in the rematch. My point on Carlos .. yes he was a great fighter but his greatness was specific .. he was tall at 5' 11.5", he had a large reach at 76", he was very tough and mean, he had killer instinct, he took a terrific punch, he threw hard ones, he had amazing stamina, he was a smart fighter and his greatest gift was exceptional confidence .. I don't see anyone knocking him out or having anything but a hard time with him but I don't rte him as the best at 160 .. somewhere in the middle of the top ten .. I think Roy Jones would have been too fast and hard hitting , Greb may have had the style and chin to be too much and Hagler too sharp .. a bull like Cerdan might have been very tough as well .. Not sure w Robinson and Hopkins ..
     
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  3. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Monzon fought casually at times- very relaxed in the ring and like Hagler he was a natural middleweight - he did not always put out 100% if he felt comfortable in his pace but always stepped up when he needed to. He is among the top of the 160lb heep top 5-10
     
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  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Top three. Based on how he looks and who he beat, no way.

    Greb, Robinson, and Hagler beat better. No debates there.

    I think Jones would UD him. We don't now how he would look vs punchers that were natural middles ( Fitz, Cerdan, Langford, Golovkin ) nor do we know how he would look vs the top defensive guys with faster hands who count counter ( Hopkins, Toney )

    Top ten based on his longevity, okay. Top three, you severely discounting the field.
     
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  5. ray fritz

    ray fritz Active Member Full Member

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    NO Monzon hastobetop3,he out ranks greats zale,Cerdan,even SUgar RAY. SOME OF HIS FIGHTS WERE NOT THRILLERSNOT OVERATED MYTH,he wasn't known as combo puncher true,leverage you got me there he threw punches all different poitions if that's what you mean. He had courage,like ALI,a chin ,stamina I never saw him tire ha ha ha he was awesome that my read sir
     
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  6. ray fritz

    ray fritz Active Member Full Member

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    B
    ummy I have same eyesight as you, he was very very patient one cool cat, Believe it or not I never was a Carlos fan,never
     
  7. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    I may not agree w top three but he is an all time great for sure ..
     
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  8. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Member Full Member

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    On prime weight, Duran's would be 135, Leonard and Hearns 147. Don't exactly see the point of focusing on prime weight.

    As for the Griffith rematch, I didn't feel Griffith won it and neither did the judges. 147-144, 147-143, 147-145

    The scores were closer with Hagler and Duran. 144-142, 144-143, 146-145

    I repeat what I have asked before. How does Monzon's record at middle compare to the guys who came earlier? None, including Robinson, did as much. Even Greb lost twice to Flowers. Who knows how Cerdan would have done with him, but certainly Cerdan doesn't come close to matching Monzon's record as a champion.
     
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  9. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Pretty much agree but the scoring was questionable in Hagler/Duran. Many thought it should have been a wider decision for Hagler.
     
  10. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    You don't regarding Griffith but many do .. Many also say he lost the first fight to Briscoe that was a hometown gift draw. How do you rate Monzon's record at middleweight when I think almost no one has a clue of who seventy of his first eighty wins were over. As champion Hagler and Hopkins were more impressive to me .. You sound silly with the Greb comparison as Greb fought and defeated much better competition. I'd compare his competition to GGG .. a dominant champion who destroyed men by breaking them down with strength, focus, conditioning, mental strength and consistency ..
     
  11. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Member Full Member

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    did Greb beat better competition at middleweight? It comes down to a philosophical question of whether beating men above a division's weight proves one better in that division. This is an issue worthy of debate in and of itself. It is important in p4p rating I think. Not so sure if one is just rating at middle. Did Tiger become better at middle than Monzon or Hagler because he did more at light-heavy?

    The "many" who say the Briscoe fight was a gift draw, have they seen a film of the fight? Is there one?

    Also, how do you know those early losses and draws weren't also questionable decisions? And perhaps the competition in Argentina at middle was better than you think. Who has really seen these fighters?

    It is valid that we, or at least I, know very little other than what one can gleam from boxrec about Monzon's pre-championship career. That is why I try to say he was a great CHAMPION at middleweight because we can evaluate that, so my comparisons have been focused on championship reigns of the various ATG's.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 2:28 PM
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  12. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    There is plenty of footage of Robinson, Hagler, Cerdan, Toney, Hopkins and many other champs before their title fights .. it is not the only standard but it is w Carlos .. The scant coverage favors Briscoe in the first fight and when an out of town fighter gets a draw w the hometown boy there seems to be something there .. that said Carlos sure won the rematch .. there s certainly no Greb film but his resume is as good s it gets ..
     
  13. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Greb beat plenty of good to great competition at 160 and that's without taking into account all the guys he walloped that weighted above 160 when he himself didn't. Mickey Walker would be light years ahead of any single Monzon victory as such.
     
  14. Tramell

    Tramell The Ideological Slayer: I Slay Ideology! Full Member

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    Everyone has an antagonist aka player hater.
     
  15. surfinghb1

    surfinghb1 Member Full Member

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    Fair, unbias post... And It's impossible, well at least for me, to try and sort out H2H between Fitz, Greb, Hagler, Monzon, SRR, RJJ, Walker, Ketchel, Langford, etc. and all them fighting each other… I mean I have no idea what would happen
     


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