Yeah, check it out. You'll get some free shots. :good I hope you have a great time. Four nights was more than enough for me.
frankenfrank, Yet you only listed a handful of great fights between two great fighters. Hearns and Leonard weren't great? What the hell are you talking about? Read carefully. I initially said "Roy started out at MW and JMW." Your reply was - "154, a quote to behold." Now from your reply, I interpreted that, as you claiming that he started out at JMW. (154) So please clarify what you meant. I know. Which is why I said he started his career as a MW. Many people thought that Roy was the P4P no. 1. Also, Roy's circumstances were different to Hill's. Fair enough. I'm not going to argue. You've made a good point. But it was still an impressive win by Roy. Nobody else did that to Hill. No. Thomas Hauser had nothing to do with Roy, and again, HBO were Roy's biggest critics. Merk is credible, and there's evidence that Roy contemplated fighting Sanders, and the Holyfield fight fell through at the last minute over a dispute regarding the upside of the PPV. Correct. But we're talking about him having a low body fat percentage at 196 pounds. Of course he burnt muscle. That's a fact, not an opinion. Mackie Shilstone got his body fat percentage down to around 6%, weighing around 196 pounds. He weighed in at 175 for Tarver. That's around 20 pounds, give or take a few pounds either way. He didn't lose 20 pounds of body fat, because there wasn't 20 pounds of body fat to lose. Can you not see the difference in his physiques for Ruiz and Tarver? So what if Tarver rehydrated to a higher weight? What's that got to do with anything? He didn't have to burn muscle like Roy had to, and he'd only had 22 fights. He was the fresher guy. There's nothing to dispute. What you mean is, you can't back up your original claim. You said Roy ducked everyone, but you can't show me any proof. That's because he didn't duck everyone. He was unusually aggressive from the opening bell, because he thought that Griffin had unfairly took his title, which made him unbelievably pissed, with a point to prove. Again, tell us who he ducked at HW, and provide some sort of evidence.
I explicitly stated that there are more examples to give. What I did post was only meant to show that it is not as rare as you claim it was. I made a thread regarding the fab 4 which deals extensively with Leonard's fraud called "his boxing career" : http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=359876 Regarding Hearns, a great fighter does not get stopped 3 times before age 31. It was you claiming that he started his career at 154, and I showed that he barely had to make that weight. You tried to make a lightmiddleweight winning the HW title out of him, I showed it was BS. Everything is already in my posts in this thread including full quotes of your original posts. Many people think Ali is the greatest and that there is a god which farted 2 people, the stars, the moon and the sun out of his rectum. Compared to almost every other Roy win, it was impressive. Now every reader with a slight ability to think should think why. I doubt it. Where is the evidence to your Sanders claim? I will make yet a bigger joke out of you. Regarding Holyfield, Holyfield was a dead 40 years old by then. 193, and it was his 175 physique, with maybe a bit more glucagon and slightly more fat. I already replied in this thread to all of this My "proof" (you don't know what a proof is) is that those fights did not happen. You claim this: you should "prove" He was unusually aggressive because Murad Muhammad and/or Alton Merkerson told him that he has a cold opponent in front of him. Byrd, Toney (would have loved to fight Jones at "HW" regardless of the division he was listed at back then), Sanders, Orlin Norris, dead Tyson, the Klitschkos, Tua, whomever he did not fight.
frankenfrank, It is rare, otherwise you'd have reeled off better names than McCall and Norris etc. Boxing's also a business, and there's lots of reasons why fights don't get made. There's things that happen behind the scenes etc, and it's not always because one guy ducked the other. He was never a fraud, but I'll read the thread over the weekend. That's a ridiculous comment to make. Hearns was a great fighter. Any great fighter can get stopped. It all depends on who they fight and what the circumstances are. I said he started out at MW and JMW. Go and read it. Roy fought at 154 twelve fights into his career. Roy had lots of impressive wins. You doubt what? Thomas Hauser had nothing to do with Roy on a personal level. Where have you made a joke out of me? Ha! Just google it. Roy went back and asked for money than what he'd gotten against Ruiz, because it was a more dangerous fight. That's not the point is it? You said he ducked everyone at HW. He didn't. How can you claim to make a bigger joke out of me, when you write nonsense like this? Just google it. Mackie brought his body fat percentage down and bulked him up, just like he'd done with Spinks years earlier. You've wrote nothing but nonsense. Ha! You think that because other HW fights didn't happen, that it proves that Roy ducked everyone? That's not proof. No, the onus is on you. You've claimed that Roy was a ducker, so give me some sort of evidence, other than the fights didn't get made. Again, there's many reasons why fights don't get made. Such as: PPV splits, gate splits, rival networks, rival promoters, rival organisations, etc. Complete nonsense. Again, Roy went at him to get his title back and to prove a point. He was outraged at the decision in the first fight, and spent months with pent-up anger inside of him. That's not proof, that's just a list of names.
McCall and Norris were far better than Cautious Play. Their careers were not as successful because: 1) They were not bigger than their opponents the way Ali was 2) But most importantly: they were not picked to be the stars by a combination of the TV networks, the NOI, the Sicilian mafia and by Don King. YDKSAB True, but in Jones' case it happened too often to be suspected for anything else than being extremely protected and carefully matched. As often as Hearns was? By someone like Iran Barkley? And it is only 1 out of 3 cases near Hearns' prime. He started out a MW. I doubt that he ever made 154 despite of what is in boxrec. Boxrec is a wonderful source, but it is not fully immune to criminal manipulations of the weighing process. List me all of his impressive wins. Or are there too many to count? This entire thread. Also by making you making a joke out of yourself. Very few if any get the joke. Still, good to know you are 1. A way of stating he price himself out. He did Again, getting down from 193 to 175 is not something unusual. Tarver gained more after the weigh in and was obviously bigger. Tarver was older, less fresh and more drained than Roy each time they fought. Your explanation to it was that he priced himself out, not mine. And pricing oneself out. He, Murad Muhammad and Elton Merkerson, probably with the help of another person toiled that anger into a well executed scam. Why did he manage to avoid that list of names?
He doesn't have a record to be compared to the very, very best, but I don't know if any other fighter ever looked so untouchable for so long. Therefore I can see an argument for him being the best h2h.
i agree. i have langford as the best lb for lb fighter ever but i think it's fair to call roy the most athletic fighter ever. at 168, he was unreal.
Could hold his own against anyone at his best, and looking at him and looking at some past greats as Tommy Loughran (just a random example of a guy that I believe gets a tad overrated when he doesnt look too good on film in my humble opinion) I think he was better than most of those greats. Of course, he didnt have a good quantity of names even though his win over Toney should be considered one of the best ever in history. Personally, a top 10 of all time probably.
frankenfrank, Where are you going with this? What has any of the above got to do with my initial point? Also, has it never occurred to you, that the reason they were never classed as truly great fighters, despite what you've wrote above, was because they weren't in fact great fighters? Orlin Norris wasn't an ATG. Heard it all before. He wasn't carefully matched. Again, guys like Liles walked away from what would have been his biggest payday. Let's not pretend that everyone was desperate to fight Roy, and he ducked them all out of fear. It's laughable. So what? It happens. Styles make fights. Lewis got knocked out by Hasim Rahman. Wlad got knocked out by Purrity, Sanders and Brewster. MAB lost to Junior Jones twice. If you don't think Tommy was a great fighter, then I feel sorry for you. Don't forget Tommy was a WW and a JMW who'd moved up and Iran was a huge, powerful guy. Go and watch the video of the fight then. A pointless task, as you'll only dismiss any of the wins I list. The only joke here is you, stating things like Roy didn't lose muscle, and certain wins shouldn't have counted etc. I don't even know why I'm replying to you. No, he wanted more money than what he'd gotten for facing Ruiz. Any 35 year old LHW would want huge money to fight at HW. No he didn't. The onus is on you to offer some kind of evidence. But your only so called evidence, is that other fights never happened. You are making a complete fool out of yourself. I cringe when I read your nonsense. Going from 190 plus, down to 175, isn't unusual, when you've got a high body fat percentage and you've got fat to burn. But Roy didn't have much fat to burn for Tarver. He was already lean, weighing in the 190's, with a body fat percentage of around 6%. There wasn't much fat to lose. Do you understand? Go and look at the Ruiz fight. Then tell me how he could have lost 20 pounds of body fat? Tell me! For the first time in his career, he had to burn through actual muscle to make weight. Do some research, to save yourself from any further embarrassment. Tarver was older? By what, seven weeks? Ha! Tarver was fresher? He turned pro at 28, and didn't have his first scheduled 12 rounder until he was 30. He'd had 22 fights going into the fight with Roy. Roy turned pro in 1989 when he was 20, and he'd fought 50 times across five weight classes going into the fight, as well as losing muscle. He was running on fumes in the last three rounds of that first fight. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about. In one of your previous posts, you've said that Roy only really had half of his 50 fights, because of his poor competition. Yet you want to include Tarver's amateur career, consisting of three round fights? You're hilarious! You've got to be on mind bending drugs if you think that Roy was the fresher guy. If you'd been paid $15m to fight Ruiz, would you not have wanted more to have fought Sanders? I've told you what happened in the Holyfield negotiations. Evander and his attorney Jim Thomas, couldn't reach an agreement with Don King with regards to the percentage of the upside of the PPV. Alton Merkerson. You're so desperate. Because to remain at HW at 35, he wanted a lot more money than what he'd been paid to fight Ruiz. Again, any 35 year old LHW would want huge money to remain there. Again, a Holyfield fight was a whisker away from happening, and Roy had met Tyson and had spoke on the phone with him numerous times throughout 2003, in the hope of making a fight in 2004. But the fight never happened, because Roy was knocked out by Tarver and Johnson, and Tyson was stopped by Danny Williams.
First you explicitly deny the greatness of McCall & Norris then you come back with why I answered your idiotic claim? Maybe I should ignore your posts from now on since my replies to them will have nothing to do with your initial point. Orlin Norris & Oliver McCall were greater fighters than Thomas Hearns and Roy Jones Jr. A Simple iteration over their lists of wins sorted by magnitude in descending order will show this. McCall's / Norris' best win > RJJ's/Hearns' best win McCall's / Norris' 2nd best win > RJJ's/Hearns' 2nd best win . . And so on. I had to example it this way because I know the majority of members here are lacking in the head department. Also an iteration over the analog list of losses will reinforce my claim. Jones was a hypejob and Hearns is overrated whereas fighters such McCall & Norris never got their dues. Whatever you "heard" never mattered because your brain never manages to do the right thing with what it gets. Quite useless arguing with your likes. This claim is about Roy Jones Jr. What can I add? Case closed. I am not in the know about the Liles contract. Probably it contained parts which ensured Liles' loss. Parts which enabled rushing him cold into the ring, catchweight, gloves, ring, location and other stipulations. Also it is possible that Liles was a primadonna too. I just don't take your words for it because you already showed your lack of honesty or lack of reality perception in this post to a degree I could never take your words for mostly anything. It is quite what it was. So now you cast him as the 1 man murderer row of his era. What else could be expected of you? In this case Wilfredo Vazquez is the GOAT Lewis and Wlad were never great fighters. To this day most do not even consider Wlad as a top 12 HW. Those that do, mostly ever knew of the existence of like 20 HWs in the entire history known to them. MAB is a borderline great, I sometimes consider him as such and sometimes do not. Winning close decisions over Hamed and Morales do not automatically translate to greatness. The rest of his "wins" were usually over badly faded opponents and regardless they do not offset his losses. Iran was probably more drained than Tommy was, was shorter, and Tommy was not really a WW, at least not during his title reign there. He was another Kronk weight cutter whom also suffered his 1st loss because of it. This did not answer the quoted text above it. I guess it is on purpose. I dismissed like 97% of your claims up to now, it still did not stop you from coming back with more ****. You are replying because you are a manipulative liar of course, and I disturb you from posting your lies without a response. Nice words for "priced himself out of fights" Either that, or admit that he was a bad joke as a HW titlist. A joke that fighters such as Tommy Morrison, Francois Both and Michael Moorer would expose by destruction. A Jirov could suffice actually. Which is the fact that you have to explain. We know fights did not happen. Yet you claim that he never ducked anyone and expect me to showcase otherwise. Tarver went down from around 220, which is not just "190 plus". Guess who went down from 193 to 175? Roy Jones Jr. Will a manipulative liar ever admit that he is a manipulative liar? Not much fat to lose but where did I ever claim he lost fat? Roy simply dehydrated from the 193 to 175. Nothing particularly unusual. He already shed more before during his MW and "LMW" days. Of course I watched it and I never claimed it was fat. See my above replies. Liar. He only dehydrated and maybe shed a few pounds of glucagon, nothing more. I did and I only embarrassed you. In your case a research won't do because you will keep ignoring and lying. Still older as opposed to younger since Roy is the one being portrayed as old by the time he fought Tarver. Tarver was in fact older and more damaged due to taking on the best available and a cocaine abuse. Now it makes 3 advantages for Roy: 1) younger 2) less ring wear tear due to fighting shells and cans 3) cocaine abuse by Tarver 4) Roy was the reigning titlist and the more established name and could call the shots. And if you insist on Roy being worn by his (circus show) "career" make it 5) Jones had more pro experience Roy was fresher due the explanations above and in my past posts. Liar and I replied to all of this Because he had to constantly run to save his porcelain chin. And he still made it to the last bell while according to you at his most drained. I have. You are a liar. Half? less than half.
It was more than nothing and it wasn't against handpicked opponents whom did not make it past the 3rd rd regardless so there you have it! You're a liar ! He was Tarver also had his jaw broken by Harding prior to it All is fine as long as 1 admits that Roy ducked Sanders by pricing himself out. Might be true. Even if it is true, Roy ducked almost everyone else. It was their job and profession after all. Nice words for pricing oneself out. If Roy ever agreed to enter the ring against Tyson he would have laid on his back as soon as Tyson made his 1st step off his corner.
Quoting my own post from 10 years ago, so some links may not work anymore. (source - http://www.secondsout.com/usa/column_50806.asp) Quote: Jones tipped the scales at 193 wearing an estimated three pounds of clothes. That was well above his previous high fighting weight of 175 pounds. But as conditioner Mackie Shilstone, who helped Jones prepare for Ruiz, explained, "Roy came to me at 192 pounds with 8.7 percent body fat. All we did was change the composition; bring his body fat down to six percent." Ie, in the fight with Ruiz Jones had about 190 pounds (193 official weight - 3 pounds of clothes) with 6 percent of fat - (190/100)*6 = 11.4 pounds of fat. Fight with Tarver 175 pounds official weight - say the same 3 pounds of clothes = 172 pounds weight. Ie, the difference was about 18 pounds, even if we take away ALL fat, it'd still be 6.6 pounds of weight to drop. But it's impossible to lose all fat: (source - http://www.iahsaa.org/wu98-1.htm) Quote: It is important to note that in males a fat percent of greater than 5% is needed for normal physiological functioning. Autopsies on starvation victims indicate they still had between 2-3% body fat at the time of death. Thus, Jones could safely rid of only 1 percent of fat, ie 1.9 pounds. He still needed to rid of 16.1 additional pounds. The rest, obviously, had to be done by either dehydration or by cut of muscle tissue or both. (the above source again) Quote: Quick weight loss methods used to lose weight at a rate greater than 2% in 24-48 hours or 5% in less than 72-96 hours generally include excessive exercise, excessive food restriction, fasting, and dehydration. These methods primarily reduce the body's water and energy supplies, and cause more muscle loss than fat loss. ... Water is the most important nutrient, therefore, the most dangerous weight loss practices involve restricting fluid intake or otherwise dehydrating the body. It is not possible to adapt one's body to dehydration. The body does not function more efficiently without water by forcing it to go through repeated bouts of dehydration. The greater the degree of dehydration the poorer one's performance and the greater the risk of health and medical problems. Research indicates it is impossible to completely rehydrate the body in less than 24-48 hours. The longer the body has been dehydrated, the longer the rehydration process will take. Research also indicates water loss due to diuretics or laxatives takes much longer to replace than water loss due to exercise. Also, the use of diuretics and laxatives can cause the body to retain more fluid upon rehydration, thus causing a greater weight gain. These methods should absolutely be avoided. According to the WBA rules: The official weigh-in for a World Title fight shall take place the day prior to the fight, between 4:00 P.M. and 8:00 P.M., ie the boxer only has about 20-28 hours to try to rehydrate the body. I doubt that time was enough for Jones to do that fully. The composition of water in the weight of adults is about 60-65%. Let's give odds to a theory that it was a BS excuse from Jones - by taking upper limit 65%, (190/100)*65 = 123,5 pounds, round it up to 125 pounds (another odds). Of 125 pounds: 1% = 1.25 lb 2% = 2.50 lb 3% = 3.75 lb 4% = 5.00 lb 5% = 6.25 lb 6% = 7.50 lb 7% = 8.75 lb 8% = 10.00 lb 9% = 11.25 lb 10% = 12.50 lb 11% = 13.75 lb 12% = 15.00 lb 13% = 16.25 lb (source - http://esport.com.ua/Stranica/Pitanie/Voda/Voda3.htm - is in Russian, so you'll have to trust my words about the contents, sorry; it talks about dehydration) Quote: Levels of dehydration: 1% - Thirst, desire to drink something. 2% - Feeling of unrest. Loss of apetite. Capacity for work decreases by about 20%. Mouth feels dry. Breathing starts to have specific smell. Tongue feels sluggish, hard to speak. 4% - Nausea. Giddiness. Emotional instability. Body feels dog-tired. Almost no wish to drink anything. 6% - Color of face changes sharply. Outward appearance is horrible. Strong giddiness. Coordination of movements is broken. Overall aggression. Unable to produce connected speech. 10% - Added to the symptoms above are: heat regulation is broken, cells extinction begins. 11% - It's no longer enough to just drink water. Urgent professional medical help is needed to stop serious changes in chemical balance of organism. 20% - Urgent medical help is not needed anymore. So how much muscle tissue did Jones have to cut to make weight for his fight with Tarver?
Then there is always the pee chart. If it is the colour of Coors light, then you are slightly dehydrated. If it is the colour of India Pale Ale, you are seriously dehydrated. If it is the colour of Guinness, then seek medical help!