Is sugar Ray Leonard the greatest welterweight?

Yeah, I rank him highly because of the B-level guys he beat as well, some good ones there and solid victories to add to the star power he has in his 147lb ring record.

Kalule though: what a win :yep :deal

 

Almost amazing he would even take that type of opponent with Hearns mega fight right around the corner.

 

I've got another article where Arum says he thinks Kalule is a natural middle (true) and will stop Ray.

Davey Moore sparred Kalule; picked Ray.

 

Likely no chance a fighter in Leonard's position today takes that fight with a mega-showdown like Hearns on the immediate horizon. I assume you feel Kalule was still pretty comfortable at the weight for you to rate the win as well as you do, all jokes aside. I think it really does add some color and density to his CV. There was very little to question about Leonard's ability, record or competitiveness at the time he hung it up the first time (professionally) at a ripe 26 in 1982. It was sterling. He was a Force, both at the time and in a historical sense at that point.

 

He certainly wasn't the corpse McCallum, Moore beat.

 

I'll raise this point, the Fab 5 that Leonard faced were a higher skill level and ability than the men Robinson faced, Galivan aside, where he

Sugar would not look quite as sweet against these 5 men as he looked against many of the come forward fighters he faced

It's madness he's questioned as a puncher isn't it Bokaj? I think the issue is he's fought 5 of the greatest fighters ever and there's only 1 (legit) stoppage over 7 fights andDuran and Hagler are 2 of the hardest to KO in history. He's still stopped HEarns, Kalule, Lalonde, Mayweather, Price, Green. All impressive knock out wins, some brutal ones

I genuinely think Leonard would be a legit knock out puncher at MW. Maybe he could even stop Lamotta at the weight

 

I think no

 

This post will likely draw the ire of those who read it and feel compelled enough to respond, but it won't be from me. Leonard's top level wins are comparable to just about anybody you'd care to mention, including Robinson. Ray's CV is just so much deeper though: Gavilan x2 (Top 3-5 WW, arguable Top 20 P4P), Armstrong (Top 5 WW, Top 5 P4P), LaMotta x5 (arguable Top 10 MW, weight disadvantage in several), Fullmer (SRR way past), Basilio (ditto), Angott x3, Turpin, Zivic x2, Olson x4, Graziano. He beat as many or more ATGs and very good HOFers as Leonard fought rated fighters. Beyond the top names is just a seemingly endless array of contenders from 147-160. Leonard would probably best all of them in one-offs, but nothing he did shows he'd be able to beat the guys Robinson did at (some) of the same stages (career wise) he was able to, which plays a role as well.

 

Great post :good

 

Blasphemy!

Though it is interesting how many of Robinson's biggest wins at MW during the 1950s when he was 30+ and 120 fights deep didn't see the final bell. Not to make it all box-recish, but this looks pretty sweet:

10/50: Olson W-KO12
12/50: Villemain W-TKO9
02/51: LaMotta W-TKO13
09/51: Turpin W-TKO10
04/52: Graziano W-KO3
12/55: Olson W-KO2
05/56: Olson W-KO5
05/57: Fullmer W-KO5

Could still crack way, way into his career. Jake and Fullmer were not easily stoppable foes. :deal

 

Damn.This is why I should visit the Classic more often.Thanks for the tip Hands Of Iron.:good

Those os us in the Ray Leonard camp will never make a convincing argument to those who firmly believe SRR is #1,and deep down I accept that is most likely the case.
But...
In a head to head situation,Ray Leonard 79-82(+Hagler fight) is probably the finest example of a fighter who always found a way,no matter what.
In a head to head,I would bet that Ray Leonard would take two from three.Blatant favouritism,and as I often tell Hands Of Iron,Ray Leonard's sugar will always taste the sweetest to me,and I accept it's bias but it's just the way it is.
Greatest ever? Probably not,but H2H? You're probably talking about one of the three most versatile fighters of all time.That's why I think the Duran loss is as important to his legacy as say,the Benitez win,because he answered so many questions that night.And the way he was willing to stand and trade told me that he was capable of fighting in almost any style he thought appropriate,and that's one of the rarest attributes in boxing.
There's never been a welterweight that I wouldn't fancy Ray beating twice out of three.

And great mention of Kalule.I did a thread based on that fight if anyone fancies a look.Again,whilst trying to figure Kalule(who was one of the most avoided fighters of that time.His manager had several court battles to get him a shot) Ray fought almost like a come-forward predator style,which was not what you would expect.
Marvellous thread by the way guys.Now I see why young SJS and HOI are spending more time here.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425180

 

Thanks for the kind words but admitting bias round here will get you annihilated

Who avoided Kalule?

 

I've got a book on it and I'll have to check for more exact details,but I'm sure he held the #1 spot with the WBA for a long time,and kept getting passed over.His manager(Mogens Palle) fought for two years in court to get him a shot,and the WBA did everything they could to freeze him out.
I know of an article.I'll just have a look...

Got it:good

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...nZyvuhtbWUz-v5TOg&sig2=KF6w8Rq_Lyhe96Vrkc1zMg

 

I thought you meant when he had the title.

At the time the WBA title was kept over in Asia. Kalule beat Ho Joo (previous challenger) then went to Japan and easily defeated wrestler-turned-boxer Kudo. Would've loved Hope Vs Kalule mind you.

Thanks for the link, writing a book on Kalule (well, e-book) so anything like that is much appreciated :good

 

No problem mate.I'll look forward to that.
And maybe I should have been clearer about when he was avoided.atsch