Is Ward now an All Time Great? (As in top 100 of all time)

Oh true, I'll get on that later

 

He is a straight up ATG in terms of H2H ability, but not near Top 100 in ATG rankings.
An even fight with someone as good as Kovalev to round out his earlier wins earned him a place in HOF...now he is a lock for HOF.
If he unifies at 175, he'll crack Top 100 if he fights around 4 more. Roman Gonzalez is around 90th ish in my ATG rankings.

He has more right to being called an 'ATG' than Joe Calzaghe, that's for sure.

Floyd is around 30th so it doesn't compare. HOWEVER Ward has something Floyd doesn't, a victory over one at-or-near prime ATG, Higher, Higher Mid, Mid, Lower-Mid tier HOF (in terms of H2H ability in this case).

 

No he isn't. Ward only fights the same fighters over and over again - straight up and down, no special effects types. Ward would never fight a slick boxer only if that opponent is drained to a zombie like Dawson was.

 

Kovalev is going to be viewed as his Frankie Randall.

 

If you go down to the classic section of this forum they have a top 100 fighters all time list. Ward has already accomplished more than some on that list.

01 - Sam Langford - Jeanette, McVey, Wills, Norfolk, Flowers, Gans, Godfrey, O'Brien
02 - Harry Greb - Tunney, Walker, Loughran, Gibbons, Norfolk, Slattery, Smith, Levinsky, Miske, Flowers, Rosenbloom
03 - Sugar Ray Robinson - Angott, Zivic, Armstrong, LaMotta, Gavilan, Villemain, Fullmer, Basilio, Graziano, Olson
04 - Henry Armstrong - Arizmendi, Ross, Ambers, Garcia, Angott, Wolgast, Jenkins, Zivic,
05 - Ezzard Charles - Louis, Walcott, Moore, Bivins, Burley, Maxim, Yarosz, Overlin, Marshall, Christoforidis, Lesnevich
06 - Bob Fitzsimmons - Dempsey, Maher, Corbett, Gardiner, O'Brien
07 - Muhammad Ali - Liston, Moore, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Ellis, Quarry
08 - Joe Gans - Erne, Connolly, Nelson, Sullivan, ?
09 - Joe Louis - Carnera, Levinsky, Baer, Uzcudun, Sharkey, Braddock, Schmeling, Conn, Nova, Walcott, Savold, Bivins
10 - Roberto Duran - Leonard, DeJesus, Buchanan, Barkley, Cuevas, Palomino, Ishimatsu, Mamby, Viruet, Marcel, Kobayashi
11 - Benny Leonard - Welsh, Dundee, Kilbane, Britton, White, Tendler
12 - Mickey Walker - Britton, Tendler, Flowers, Levinsky, Uzcudun, Rosenbloom
13 - Willie Pep - Saddler, Wright, Ortiz, Famechon
14 - Barney Ross - McLarnin, Canzoneri, Battalino, Garcia
15 - Archie Moore - Bivins, Chase, Williams, Johnson, Satterfield, Maxim, Olson, Cocoa Kid, Marshall
16 - Ray Leonard - Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Benitez, Kalule, Mayweather, Lalonde
17 - George Dixon - Kelly, Wallace, McCarthy, Sullivan
18 - Terry McGovern - Gans, Dixon, Erne, Palmer,
19 - Packey McFarland - Welsh, Britton, Gibbons
20 - Pernell Whitaker - Chavez, Ramirez, Mayweather, Haugen, Nelson, McGirt
21 - Tony Canzoneri - McLarnin, Ambers, Dundee, Singer, Berg, Chocolate, Arizmendi
22 - Jimmy McLarnin - Mandell, Singer, Corbett III, Ross, Canzoneri, Ambers, Leonard, Petrolle, Villa, La Barba
23 - Sandy Saddler - Pep, Carter, Brown, Elorde, De Marco
24 - Stanley Ketchel - Sullivan, Papke, O'Brien
25 - Charley Burley - Cocoa Kid, Moore, Williams, Zivic, Soose, Chase
26 - Holman Williams - Cocoa Kid, Booker, Burley, Marshall, Chase, Moore, Satterfield,
27 - Billy Conn - Krieger, Apostoli, Yarosz, Bettina, Lesnevich, McCoy, Savold, Zale
28 - Gene Tunney - Dempsey, Greb, Carpentier, Gibbons, Levinsky
29 - Roy Jones - Hopkins, Toney, McCallum, Hill, Tarver, Ruiz
30 - Joe Walcott - Ferns, Dixie Kid, Jackson, Smith
31 - Carlos Monzon - Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles, Briscoe, Valdez
32 - Jimmy Wilde - Jennings, Symonds, Hughes, Smith, Lee, Noble, Conn, Lynch, Moore
33 - Eder Jofre - Medel, Legra, Saldivar,
34 - Marvin Hagler - Hearns, Duran, Antuofermo, Minter, Mugabi, Hamsho, Roldan, Briscoe
35 - Julio Cesar Chavez - Mayweather, Lockridge, Laporte, Rosario, Limon, Ramirez, Taylor, Camacho, Haugen
36 - Tommy Gibbons - Chip. Meehan, Miske, Norfolk
37 - Kid Gavilan - Williams, Jack, Basilio, Dauthuille, Janiro, Graham, Villemain
38 - Jack Britton - Kid Lewis, O'Dowd, Leonard, Walker
39 - Emile Griffith - Ortega, Fernandez, Rodriguez, Paret, Fullmer, Tiger, Archer, Benvenuti, Briscoe
40 - Jose Napoles - Griffith
41 - Alexis Arguello - Olivares, Escalera, Limon, Chacon, Ramirez, Mancini
42 - Michael Spinks - Holmes, Johnson, Muhammad, Qawi, Cooney
43 - Tommy Loughran - Walker, Greb, Baer, Braddock, Carpentier, Stribling, McTigue, Slattery, Schaaf, Uzcudun, Levinsky, Sharkey
44 - Thomas Hearns - Cuevas, Benitez, Duran, Andries, Roldan, Hill
45 - Jimmy Bivins - Christoforidis, Yarosz, Bettina, Soose, Lesnevich, Maxim, Savold, Charles, Marshall, Moore
46 - Ike Williams - Angott, Montgomery, Jack,
47 - Floyd Mayweather - Pacquiao, De La Hoya, Alvarez, Castillo, Corrales, Mosley, Cotto, Hernandez, Marquez
48 - Manny Pacquiao - Marquez, Morales, Barrera, De La Hoya, Cotto, Bradley, Margarito, Mosley, Hatton, Ledwaba
49 - Tommy Ryan - Smith, Dempsey, ?
50 - Jack Dillon - Levinsky, Chip, Flynn, Smith
51 - Bernard Hopkins - Trinidad, De La Hoya, Joppy, Wright, Tarver, Pavlik, Jones, Pascal
52 - Carlos Ortiz - Torres, Loi, Brown, Elorde, Laguna, Ramos
53 - Fighting Harada - Jofre, Ebihara, Kingpetch, Rudkin, Medel
54 - Ruben Olivares - Rose, Rudkin, Pimentel, Chacon, Ramirez
55 - Evander Holyfield - Tyson, Bowe, Moorer, Holmes, Foreman, Thomas, Dokes, Ruiz, Qawi
56 - Young Corbett III - Garcia, Lesnevich, Walker, Conn, Apostoli
57 - Mike Gibbons - Lewis, Dillon, Greb, Chip, O'Dowd
58 - Ted Kid Lewis - Britton, O'Dowd
59 - Freddie Welsh - Atell, Driscoll, Dundee, Wolgast
60 - Freddie Steele - Garcia, Lesnevich, Krieger, Overlin, Jones, Apostoli, Risko
61 - Lou Ambers - Canzoneri, Armstrong, Jenkins, Cocoa Kid, Villa, Zivic, Arizmendi
62 - Salvador Sanchez - Gomez, Lopez, Nelson, Laporte
63 - Wilfredo Gomez - Zarate, Pintor, Laporte, Davila, Lockridge
64 - Vicente Saldivar - Laguna, Ramos, Winstone, Legra, Famechon
65 - Rocky Marciano - Louis, Charles, Walcott, Moore, Savold, LaStarza
66 - Abe Attell - Dixon, Nelson, Kilbane
67 - Manuel Ortiz - ?
68 - Harold Johnson - Bivins, Moore, Charles, Satterfield, Valdez, Jones
69 - **** Tiger - Downes, Giardello, Fernandez, Fullmer, Carter, Benvenuti, Torres
70 - Luis Manuel Rodriguez - Griffith, Paret, Carter, Benton, Briscoe
71 - Carmen Basilio - Robinson, Jenkins, Williams, Graham, Saxton, Ortega
72 - Carlos Zarate - Zamora, Davila
73 - Miguel Canto - ?
74 - Oscar De La Hoya - Chavez, Whitaker, Hernandez, Quartey, Mayorga, Sturm
75 - Azumah Nelson - Gomez, Fenech, Laporte
76 - Mike McCallum - Toney, Kalule, Jackson, Curry, Watson, Collins, Kalambay, Harding
77 - Lary Holmes - Norton, Witherspoon, Weaver, Cooney, Berbick, Mercer, Ali, Shavers
78 - Bob Foster - Tiger
79 - Teddy Yarosz - Overlin, Krieger, Marshall
80 - Jim Driscoll - Dixon, Attell
81 - Panama Al Brown - ?
82 - Pascual Perez - ?
83 - Lloyd Marshall - Charles, Burley, Overlin, Yarosz, Christoforidis, Williams, Maxim, Chase
84 - Jake LaMotta - Robinson, Cerdan, Yarosz, Villemain, Janiro, Williams, Zivic
85 - Juan Manuel Marquez - Pacquiao, Barrera
86 - Wilfred Benitez - Cervantes, Palomino, Duran
87 - Nonpareil Jack Dempsey - Donovan, ?
88 - Erik Morales - Pacquiao, Barrera, Zaragoza, Ayala
89 - Marco Antonio Barrera - Morales, Hamed, Tapia, Ayala
90 - Young Griffo - ?
91 - Fritzie Zivic - Armstrong, Burley, Angott, Kid Azteca, LaMotta, Jenkins, Booker
92 - Joe Frazier - Ali, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Machen, Chuvalo
93 - Pete Herman - Williams, Wilde
94 - Lennox Lewis - Tyson, Holyfield, V. Klitschko, Tua, Golota, Mercer, Ruddock
95 - Jack "Kid" Berg - Kid Chocolate, Petrolle, Canzoneri
96 - Philadelphia Jack O'Brien - Fitzsimmons, Choynski, Jackson
97 - James Toney - McCallum, Nunn, Jirov, Holyfield, Ruiz
98 - Nicolino Locche - Brown, Cervantes
99 - Jung Koo Chang - Zapata, Chitalada
100-George Foreman - Frazier, Chuvalo, Norton, Lyle, Cooney, Moorer

 

He's an ATG.

I need more time to think about top 100 though.

 

The question should be top 50. Anyone saying he isn't top 100 doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

I posted McGrains list and compared it with a few others, and mentioned those names. I don't think he's above Foreman, Frazier, Mosley, Lewis arm.

 

These lists are very disrespectful to boxing, other than McGrain's. Everyone's lists are provisional because no one knows the ins and outs of the older eras like they do modern eras, but these lists still can't be this bad.

 

I prefer McGrain's, lists are just rare and needed some sort of external reference

 

Pretty big names frequently make the bottom of that list. Top 50 isn't even on the table for Ward.

 

I posted McGrain's list above in your thread. He's got some headscratchers in it. Maybe, I'm missing something but why is Stanley Ketchel 24 and James Toney 97? Then there are little quibbles like why is Archie Moore after Willie Pep when from what I can see he's got a lot more good names to his credit. Did I just miss a ton of good guys that Pep beat? Also, who did Jose Napoles beat that I'm forgetting? I got Griffith and then I'm drawing a blank. Pacquiao and Mayweather are much better than Ike Williams. Loughran and Bivins apparently beat everybody but are all the way back in the 40s.

I am really not sold on some of the late 1800s and early 1900s fighters on this list. Guys like George Dixon, Terry McGovern, Packey McFarland seem way too high. Modern guys like Chavez or Pacquiao have way more notable names on their win ledger than Packey McFarland. I'm not really sure how they justify him being so high. I'm sure he was good and his record is nearly unblemished, but so are Ricardo Lopez' and Sven Ottke's. What makes Packey McFarland so much better than Joe Calzaghe, Duilio Loi, and Marcel Cerdan who didn't even make the list? There's definitely some old timer bias going on. I mean Freddie Steele is leagues better than Stanley Ketchel while being 30 points farther down the list and James Toney barely makes the list at all. He went from middleweight to heavyweight just like Bob Fitzsimmons who's sitting at number 6!

If you don't think Ward is greater than Foreman, Frazier, Mosley, or Lewis that's fine, but what about
98 - Nicolino Locche - Brown, Cervantes
99 - Jung Koo Chang - Zapata, Chitalada

And have you ever seen the footage of Philadelphia Jack O'Brien? He's a total ******! He's skipping around and slapping like a schoolgirl. It's like what the hell am I watching? The only reason McGrain puts him at 96 is because he's got that win over Fitzsimmons who McGrain laughably puts at 6 all time. The old timer bias is ridiculous, even if it's not as bad as Bert Sugar's.

Young Griffo has a reputation as being unhittable and being one of the best fighters of his era, but who the hell did he beat? Bob Foster had a nice long run as light heavyweight champion which was less eventful than Hopkins or Golovkin's reign at middleweight. He beat an old small Dick Tiger and that's his best win. Ward is already better than that guy.

 

Someone who is often omitted from Top 50 is Mike McCallum. I really don't believe Ward has come that far.
If he takes over at Cruiserweight after cleaning out Light Heavyweight, he is well into Top 50 for me. Wins over Usyk, Breidis, Gassiev, Tournament winner at Cruiser, is a big deal especially when you have a Ward-like frame. Ward is smaller than Kovalev.

 

That's why I wanted more time to think about the question.

I don't have Ward above #97 James Toney or #100 George Foreman, but there are some fighters in there that Ward would rank above, as you mentioned.

I think he sneaks into top 100, but is a long way from top 50.

 

Ward is ahead of McCallum at this point, but that's why I say top 50 is good debate. McCallum is around that level. I think of De La Hoya around top 50 based on what the Ring rated him before Golden Boy took over. Ward is easily in that discussion.