Apparently, many posters here know nothing about Wills but what they have seen of him in his late 30's on the YouTube. Real historians here. Jesus Christ. Jack Dempsey never beat a fighter half as good as Sam Langford let alone beat someone as good as him more than a dozen times. Add to that multiple wins over McVea, Jeanette, Clark and then John Lester Johnson (ouch), Meehan (ouch). By the weight of their resumes, it is the Dempsey crowd here who has the onus of proof and not Wills. Oh, and let's not forget that Dempsey & Co. ducked Wills like a bunch of yellow dogs for years.
I agree with this assessment. Wills ranks higher. The man on film is no where near what the real fighter wills was. Had they fought just after Dempsey vs Fulton in 1918. Wills vs Dempsey one would resemble the first fight with Tunney vs Greb. I see Wills punishing him badly. Dempsey would be capable of winning a rematch. But Wills was a proven commodity he beat all the top heavyweights that he had access too. Dempsey only beat Fulton, firpo and brennon as real heavyweights. Big difference from Langford & mcvey. Wills was just as dirty as Dempsey he would absolutely school him in 1918. Just like all the tactics Greb picked up along the way...and he unload on a green Tunney. Dempsey as much as we admire him would be no different. Most people make the mistake as using his film to judge him. He wasn't a flat footed slow fighter in his prime. He had remarkable short area power as display by him annihilating an ATG in Kid Norfolk. Dempsey would be in big trouble leaving himself so open. BIG problems would be coming. Wills was better than Mcvey & Johnson in my estimation. He proved he was at least even with Langford. I see it as ' wills/langford (interchangable) Johnson Mcvey then Jeanette. No doubt in my mind Langford would have annihilated Johnson had he been giving the chance. C'mon he was in wars while Johnson was getting fat fighting chumps like Fireman flynn. Langford would punish him badly he would have been motivated beyond belief facing Johnson. The Newspapers prior to The Johnson-Willard fight acknowledged Wills was the best heavyweight. Maybe it wasn't a overwhelming theory but I certainly read it expressed that way weather right or wrong I would agree with their assessment. They had the pulse of the current day...looking back People don't realize how much criticism Johnson was getting while winning. Corbett & just about everyone blasted Johnson for his Flynn performance saying he moved the needle back a decade giving such an awful display of holding & hitting with no boxing skills and Johnson was relatively young during the flynn fight. Johnson was as close to getting DQ'ed as Flynn. It was Ugly... Johnson may of had the best potential but he never realized his true potential fighting Class C opponent's like Firman flynn & Frank Moran. He quit pushing himself. Had he fought a Langford he would of been exposed BIG TIME. And Wills was just about even with Langford..it's a step above Dempsey or Johnson in my estimation. I think Johnson/mcvey/Dempsey/jeffries were all on the same plane. Above them was Wills & Langford. Rightfully so. The Wills-langford bouts were better than any Heavyweight title fights before Gene Tunney days. They were the top two guys. The only guy that had the chance to clearly be better than Harry wills was Joe Louis...it's not Dempsey. Just my thought's.
Dempsey beat better versionsof Fir Dempsey beat better versions of Firpo , and Fulton and more convincingly. Johnson was never in danger of being DSQ'd against Flynn. How Johnson would have done against Langford later in both their careers is a matter for conjection,you state your opinion as though its fact. Some of the Wills v Langford fights involved a past prime , overweight Langford.
Yeah I'm definitely not trying to state my opinion as fact..I state at the end it's just thought's. That's my bad if it comes across like that I'm certainly not trying to come across as GlaukosTheHammer. The one thing I learned with Langford is he went in & out of prime for a period depending on how motivated he was as sometimes he was more fat than other times. There's definately not hard cut off for his prime ending. Your assessment is fair. Some Langford vs wills fight's involved a past his prime overweight Langford. But I do believe Wills was one of the greatest Heavyweights ever at adjusting to a fighter on rematches. In both Langford & Mcvey he improved dramatically on Return bouts & people don't give him enough credit for that (in my opinion) Just my thoughts. Regardless of whether Johnson was in danger of being Dq'ed it was because they didn't want to DQ the champion. Flynn was yelling at the ref over & over in the match for Holding his hands by the wrist and hitting with the free hand. So there was indeed some element of DQ because he warned Johnson repeatly. It was after ONLY after Flynn's plea's were ignored that Flynn started Head butting. Saying afterwards if he's going to cheat then so am I. Weather he had an honest chance at DQ. Not really the issue as he was dogged in the press mightily for his performance which was my point that his "greatness" is a bit exaggerated. Looking back in time as oppose to the present day press views of some of his title fight's. Again same with Battling Jim Johnson he was dogged big time in the press. He was ripe for the picking by a real threat, which was my point. I'm not dogging Johnson as I do think is true potential was the highest of the era, I just don't feel he reached that, while Langford clearly overachieved. And looking back should be ranked higher. I do think Harry Wills was single handily one of the the best rematch fighter's of all time. As he took his lumps learning the fine arts but in the end his greatness always prevailed eventually. Just my thought's. The only return match that comes to mind with Dempsey that sticks out was the miske fight's. Miske did state that Dempsey improved dramatically in his book. But Langford was a much tougher fighter than Miske. Maybe who they fought doesn't translate into who might be more ready...it's possible. I Still stick to my belief that Wills vs Dempsey one would resemble Greb vs Tunney 1. It would be a bloodbath in favor of Wills. That was the 1918 time frame I'm referencing as Wills got rather old by the time they signed to fight. I do think Wills would still have won but it would have been far less convincing than in 1918. Expecting Wills to stay in his prime for a decade is a hard ask. Even Dempsey couldn't do that in all fairness. It's why Wills looks so old on the film we have of him. If the only two fights we had of Dempsey was the Tunney fight's he be viewed much different. So you can't judge wills by the film...
A great picture of a much younger version of Harry Wills. Tree Truck legs for extra power.... This content is protected
They didn't want to DSQ the Champion?There were no judges only a referee whose stated opinion was Flynn fouled out to save himself from further punishment ,as Wills did to Sharkey.. The referee did not warn Johnson repeatedly . 1918 would have been pre prime for Dempsey. Wills relied heavily on his size,he mauled in close,. I don't think Dempsey would have allowed him that leeway,and I think he would be too fast for Harry. Flynn displayed no ability throughout the fight. He was cut about the face until blood ran down his breast in a stream. He was utterly helpless from the first round on and by the sixth was deliberately trying to butt the champion's chin with his head. Time after time, as Johnson held him powerless in the clinches, Flynn jerked his head upward. Smith warned him repeatedly, but it did no good. In the seventh he began leaping upward every time he could work his head under Johnson's chin. Flynn's feet were both off the floor time and again with the energy he put into his bounds. Sometimes he seemed to leap two feet into the air in frantic plunges at the elusive jaw above him. Referee Smith forced Flynn back toward his corner half a dozen times. "Stop that butting," he would say, shaking his finger in Flynn's face. "Stop it or I will disqualify you." "The — Negro's holding me," Flynn roared back. "He's holding me all the time. He's holding me like this," and he offered to illustrate on the referee. Smith evaded the blood smeared arms held toward him and waved the men together again. In the next clinch—it was in the eighth round—Flynn flung himself upward again. Smith jumped between them and warned him once more. "Next time you do it I'll disqualify you," he shouted at Flynn, but changed his mind, for it happened again and again in that round and repeatedly in the ninth before the police took a hand. Through it all the champion was grinning. He evaded Flynn's attack with the utmost ease, whether the Pueblo man led with his hands or with his head. Only once in the rounds did he show any wish to end the fight, and yet ringside opinion was unanimous that he could have put Flynn out at any time he happened to fancy, whether in the first or the ninth round. Which newspapers said Wills was the best heavyweight inJuly1919?
"Jack Dempsey never beat a fighter half as good as Sam Langford let alone beat someone as good as him more than a dozen times." Dempsey was a quacker for sure for not fighting Wills but this is a bit harsh. Dempsey did defeat Fulton.
So did Wills, broke his ribs and laid him flat with a body shot. But yeah, maybe that was a bit harsh.