Jack Dempsey vs Riddiick Bowe

lufcrazy · May 29, 2015

I was wondering if it was even seamus writing these posts!

mcvey · May 29, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Seamus really? Aren't you the guy who called Marciano the greatest head to head fighter below 200lb and picked him greater than Dempsey. You have always criticized Dempsey against modern fighters in h2h matches, why the change of heart?

Did Dempsey even beat Miske? The only healthy version he fought he fought to a draw. He beat Miske when Miske was dying from Bright's disease.

Gibbons did NOT look good on film in the Dempsey fight. His hands did not look fast. His feet did not look fast.
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It's official then.
Tommy Gibbons was NOT a good boxer!
Speed equals talent!

Seamus · May 29, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Seamus really? Aren't you the guy who called Marciano the greatest head to head fighter below 200lb and picked him greater than Dempsey. You have always criticized Dempsey against modern fighters in h2h matches, why the change of heart?

Did Dempsey even beat Miske? The only healthy version he fought he fought to a draw. He beat Miske when Miske was dying from Bright's disease.

Gibbons did NOT look good on film in the Dempsey fight. His hands did not look fast. His feet did not look fast.
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Styles, bro. Styles.

I don't like Dempsey against guys who use their distance and length well but Bowe gave up those advantages at the drop of a hat. It's really a pick-em fight. If Bowe sticks to a smart fight plan he could win. If he gets brave he could lose. You don't invite a tiger to dine with you.

Gibbons was renowned as heavyhanded and very, very crafty by contemporaries. Without a lot more footage, I have to go with what history says at some point.

mcvey · May 29, 2015

Seamus said: ↑

Styles, bro. Styles.

I don't like Dempsey against guys who use their distance and length well but Bowe gave up those advantages at the drop of a hat. It's really a pick-em fight. If Bowe sticks to a smart fight plan he could win. If he gets brave he could lose. You don't invite a tiger to dine with you.

Gibbons was renowned as heavyhanded and very, very crafty by contemporaries. Without a lot more footage, I have to go with what history says at some point.
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Ditto:good

SuzieQ49 · May 29, 2015

Seamus,

This doesn't sound like you. Aren't you the guy who keeps claiming where are these 185lb fighters today who are knocking out 6'6 235lb skilled powerful super heavyweights? Yet you pick Jack over Bowe?

janitor · May 29, 2015

I have hacked Seamus's account.

Webbiano · May 29, 2015

sauhund II said: ↑

LOL, no sub 200 pounder is gonna beat Bowe, never, especially one with zero regard to defense , who was ko;ed /knocked down by bouncers and tough guys....I can assure you that Dempsey has never been hit that hard and often as Bowe would nail him....Hide probably hit as hard as Dempsey and Bowe had him on the canvas I forget how many times.......Bowe has never been stopped and has ONE razorthin loss on his pro career in a absurd fight with a fan man and a collapsing pregnant wife....

Dempsey, Marciano, Schmelling, Baer etc etc would get murdered by a motivated/trained Bowe.

The end.
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A 205 pound Holyfield past his best beat Bowe. 5 pounds makes little difference, especially considering Dempsey probably hit harder than Holyfield

Styles make fights, Jack has a good chance hear even if he isn't favourite in many minds.

mcvey · May 29, 2015

Webbiano said: ↑

A 205 pound Holyfield past his best beat Bowe. 5 pounds makes little difference, especially considering Dempsey probably hit harder than Holyfield

Styles make fights, Jack has a good chance hear even if he isn't favourite in many minds.
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Holyfield scaled 217lbs when he beat Rid**** and 213lbs for the 3rd fight
Evander was 205lbs for the first fight, which he lost.
But your point is well taken.:good

SuzieQ49 · May 29, 2015

Here are some quotes by you Seamus on Jack Dempsey

Seamus said: ↑

Oh, please tell me the great tests that Dempsey faced? A busy, crafty hard puncher in Harry Wi... oh no... A fast moving frenetic tornado in Harry Gr... oh wait...

And he dropped Tunney. How did that series work out for him against a guy who outyounged him by a whole TWO YEARS? Did that extra reservoir of youth that Gene possessed defeat the great William Harrison?

And now are we to only rate the fictional "active" Dempsey not the slovenly starlet fukking, controlled puppet who actually was "champion"?

It must suck to grasp for heroes so desperately that logic is the first victim.

I suspect you don't really understand how good Holmes was and how untested Dempsey was allowed to be.

Marciano stands in history as the model of a fighter who took on allcomers based solely on their ability... and may be the first champion in the heavyweight lineal succession to do so.

How good was Dempsey's resume? When you consider the state of some of the "names" he beat, it isn't that impressive. His championship reign is a farce, a carefully constructed fiction penned by Rickard and Kearns. They deserve great credit for their management and promotion.

Name me the challenger he beat who was superior to Wills or Greb?

Name me another heavyweight champion who took off 3 years from defending his championship?

By the way, I don't think Dempsey lasts 15 with Holmes.

And you can't ignore what happened to Dempsey against Flynn...

Earnie went 15 with Ali and 12 with Holmes. Meanwhile, Jack was rocked to his heels by Carpentier.

I'm going with Earnie Shavers within 3. Bad match-up for Jack's sloppy defense.

The article brings nothing new to the discussion. We are still left with a highly contrived, borderline fraudulent, residency upon the championship throne. Between obvious ducking of two of the best challengers, inactivity and the selection of poor challengers, Dempsey's championship legacy is certainly one of the most tainted to the objective eye.

How in the hell can you "rampage" though a division when you purposely avoid the two best challengers and opt for a sickly Billy Miske (anyone doubting this, please read Moyle's book), and completely trumped up hype jobs in Carpentier and Firpo?

That sounds more like a very careful and slow navigation to the quietest ports in the division.

Carpentier was a fraud of a heavyweight and still wobbled Dempsey.

I don't believe in the myth of a "prime Dempsey". The guy struggled with Brennan and had so damn many soft touches during what should have been his prime that I am led to believe his management was hiding something.

I don't think Dempsey's game plays well over a longer career against a large variety of opponents. He was not a terribly composed fighter. And for all his tiger-like movement on those dancer's legs, he still got tagged. I just rewatched a "prime" Dempsey get repeatedly by Bill Brennan, a guy Greb handled about a hundred times. Not at all impressed with what he was trying to do… at least not to the degree that I would consider him a prime ATG heavyweight.

Do I consider Dempsey fast? Yes, it is truly frightening what Dempsey did to a fat, old farmhand who hadn't fought in 4 years.

Dempsey made far too many mistakes. Louis is more efficient and faster and disassembles him.

Wlad vs Dempsey?
I find it rather silly to bet on a guy who had about an 18 month prime and then sat on his ass and ducked his best opposition over a guy who has dominated the division for 8+ years. The burden of proof is much better fulfilled by one than the other.
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Seamus · May 29, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Here are some quotes by you Seamus on Jack Dempsey
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I'm so flattered I don't know what to say.

This pick has less to do with Dempsey than it does with Bowe.

Dempsey was a great, great talent. However, his management largely wasted his potential... at least in every facet outside of monetary.... but it is called Prize Fighting for a reason.

SuzieQ49 · May 29, 2015

Seamus said: ↑

Gibbons was renowned as heavyhanded and very, very crafty by contemporaries. Without a lot more footage, I have to go with what history says at some point.
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Again, how many of these saw Liston, Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis or Klitschko fight in their primes? Arcel? Schmeling?

And have you ever heard someone who saw DiMaggio or Mantle and in later age Bonds say that Bonds was better? People just don't work that way.

Seamus · May 29, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Again, how many of these saw Liston, Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis or Klitschko fight in their primes? Arcel? Schmeling?

And have you ever heard someone who saw DiMaggio or Mantle and in later age Bonds say that Bonds was better? People just don't work that way.
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When they compare him to his contemporaries, i.e. Dempsey being faster than Leonard, that says something.

SuzieQ49 · May 29, 2015

Seamus said: ↑

When they compare him to his contemporaries, i.e. Dempsey being faster than Leonard, that says something.
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Aren't you a guy who likes hard evidence?

We know Marcianos was the best of his era there is strong evidence to support that.

We do not know if Dempsey was the best of his era. There is not enough evidence to prove he was superior to either Wills or Greb.

Seamus · May 29, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

We know Marcianos was the best of his era there is strong evidence to support that.

We do not know if Dempsey was the best of his era. There is not enough evidence to prove he was superior to either Wills or Greb.
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I agree with everything you have written here.

But it does not affect my thoughts on a Bowe - Dempsey matchup.

dinovelvet · May 29, 2015

Seamus said: ↑

This pick has less to do with Dempsey than it does with Bowe.

Dempsey was a great, great talent. However, his management largely wasted his potential... at least in every facet outside of monetary.... but it is called Prize Fighting for a reason.
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Not long ago you said his success was only due to the fact his management set him up with a career of easy winnable fights:huh

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