Jack Johnson KO 65 Hank Griffin in Bakersfield, Ca 1898

According to CyberboxingZone, although this is not confirmed yet. Did this actually happen? This would be a noteworthy win given the distance it went and given hank's reputation.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jjohn.htm

 

Pretty sure it didnt happen.

 

65 rounds? That fight would be too famous! I doubt it happened. The known fights between Johnson and Griffin were 1-0-2 in Griffin's favor. Intersting, Johnson beat green versions of Jeanette and Mcvey, but could not defeat Griffin in three tries, and was winless vs him.

 

Surprised? The most over-rated fighter in the history of the sport.

 

I think Ketchel is more over rated than Johnson. But it is interesting to note that when Johnson was fighting some decent near his size, age, and experience level, he has plenty of L's and D's next to his name.

Griffin was about 6'1", and weight between 180-205 pounds.

 

Johnson did go 3-0 vs Denver Ed Martin.

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Also Johnson faced Hank Griffin in 1901...he was alot more experienced and physically more mature when he fought Jeanette and Mcvea 1903-1906. You may say Jeanette and Mcvea were green, but Mcvea was 9-1 weighing around 215lb and had recently knocked out top contender Denver Ed Martin, so Mcvea was a very worthy title challenger. Also when johnson won a 15 round decision over Joe Jeanette in 1906...jeanette was 7-5-1 and knocked out sam langford in 8 rounds...Jeanette had just 1 less pro fight than when tim witherspoon challenged larry holmes for the title.

 

Totally disagree. Ketchel has now become one of the most underrated fighters of all time. Fitzsimmons is has become slightly overrated. I would put my money on Ketchel by knockout if he ever fought fitzsimmons. Fitz does not have the chin to take Ketchel's stuff.

 

Griffin did not have a glass jaw, nor was he a string bean at 6'6" 200 pounds as Ed Martin was.

Griffin was past his best in 1901...yet he still beat Johnson in this time line.

We have been over the fact that McVey was a teenager when Johnson beat him, and Jeanette had zero amateur experience, and was a .500 fighter learning his craft. Witherpsoon had a amateur career, was developed in a Philly gym, was undefeated, and was much further along was when he fought Holmes.

If you want to look at the best fighters Johnson fought who had some experience, some size, and were not too old or green, Johnson's results are mixed.

Choynski KO loss. 1-0
Griffin 1-0-2...vs Johnson, or if you prefer 1 win, and two draws.
Hart 1-0 Vs Johnson.
Haines 1-1-1 vs Johnson, and Haines was just good, not great. KO loss

All of the above names had more experience than Mcvey and Jeanette by a mile, which is why they had sucess vs Johnson.

Another interesting point is some of Johnson's fans say, but Jack carried so and so. Oh really, did Sam McVey or Sam Langford carry as many guys for the same reason? No, McVey and Langford actually scored Ko's and won more cleanly when they were mature heavies.

But look for the fight report, or a detialed news report of the 65th round KO. Its intersting if it is true.

 

Fitz took punches from heavies who could hit. Maher, Sharkey, and Choynski. They did not KO him. Do you really think Ketchel hit harder than these three? I urge you to re-think what you just wrote.

The only heavy who stopped what can be viewed as a prime Fitzsimmons was Jeffries.

 

You have to take into account where johnson was in his career when he was fighting these guys. Johnson was a mere 180lber when he took on choynski, a far cry from the physical speciman 205lb prime Jack Johnson. Johnson also took on hank grffin when he was sleeping in alleyways the night before and living on scraps...Its not like he had these kind of troubles in his prime years 1906-1910

Johnson beat the following Big Men

6'3 210lb Sandy Fergusson
6'6 200lb Denver Ed Martin
215lb Sam Mcvea
6'1 200lb Brad Simmons
6'4 225lb Pat Lester
6'2 210lb Tom Cowler
6'2 203lb Frank Moran
6'0 227lb James J Jeffries
6'3 200lb Peter Felix
6'0 200lb Black Bill

Plus More


I would say this is a good list, especially considering johnson beat some of these men when he was nearly 50 years old


* Should size be a big indicator though? James J Jeffries outweighed Joe Choynski by 63lb, but could only manage a draw. Jeffries outweighed Fitzimmons by 39lb and got rocked and took many rounds to dispose of a supermiddleweight. Jeffries was taken 50 HARD rounds by a 5'8 183lb Tom Sharkey whom he outweighed by 30lb, who was knocked out early by Gus Ruhlin and Fitzsimmons. Jeffries also took many rounds to dispose of a very inactive aging James Corbett whom he outweighed by 30lb.

Jeffries fought Fitz at 37 and 40. First time fitz was coming off a TWO year layoff. Jeffries also fought Corbett age 34 and 37. Corbett was coming off a THREE year layoff in both fights. The last time Corbett beat a fighter weighing over 160lb was in 1892!!! YIKES!


Larry Holmes beat many green fighters, yet you give him credit for his wins over Witherspoon, Smith, Berbick, Bey, Williams, etc. why not give Jack Johnson credit for his wins? Afterall didnt you once say young fighters are capable of putting up there best performances in big fights?? Joe Jeanette and Sam Langford were both 27 and 23 years old respectivley when Johnson beat them.

Larry Holmes post 1981 certainly did not like to take on contenders with any experience, and avoided the more expeirenced unifcation matches/top contenders for Green fighters. I dont hear you harp on Holmes about that, why only pick on Jack Johnson? Jack Johnson put together one of the best reigns in history when he defended his Colored heavyweight title 15 times in just 5 years beating the best heavyweights in the world. That is why he is great, because of his coloured heavyweight title reign, everything after that just gravvy.

 

Hank Griffin was KNOCKED OUT by Denver Ed Martin. Klondike Haines was beaten SIX times by Frank Childs and was beaten by Denver Ed Martin. I think both Frank Childs and Denver ed Martin were better contenders and more experienced fighters when Johnson beat them, than Haines and Griffinl.

 

Ernie Terell was 6'6 200lb. So was Jack Trammell in the 1930s. Just because your naturally skinny does not mean you cant make it to the top with outstanding boxing skills and use of your size and reach. I have footage of Denver Ed Martin tooling on gus Ruhlin in a sparring footage.

Past his prime? Doubt it. He was 21-2 coming off an impressive winning streak. Martin was much too tall athletic and skilled for Griffin. He absolutley destroyed Griffing knocking him out. Martin was the better fighter.

1. How would you know Jeanette's record is not incomplete? how would you know jeanette wasnt boxing many exhibitions for years training?


Jeanette was 7-5-1 when johnson beat him over 15 rounds, including an 8th round knockout of Sam Langford. he certainly developed quickly.

Mcvea was 9-1 but like Mike Tyson, he was an early bloomer. He knocked out Top Contender Denver Ed Martin(who had been PROMISED title shot against Jeffries in early 1903) so he was clearly a very dangerous puncher even at an early age. Johnson dominated Mcvea so badly, mcvea refused to ever get in the ring again with Jack.

 

Did you know In November of 1903, Jeffries turned down a $20,000 plus expenses offer from the Colma athletic club to fight Sam McVey?

Oakland Tribune, 1903, 18/8

"When there are no white men left to fight I will quit the business. It may be that I can defeat all the colored heavyweights in sight with ease but i am not going to try.

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."- James J Jeffries

 

Its not just about who hit harder. Yes, I do think ketchell hit as hard as maher and choynski. Ketchell knocked out heavyweights too, and floored a prime 206lb Jack Johnson with 1 punch outweighed by 40lb. Ketchel IMO was a better finisher than the others, had better two fisted attack, better combination puncher, faster handspeed than those 3. Ketchell knocked out steel chinned HOF Philadelphia Jack O Brien OUT COLD, they had to carry him out of the ring! He also knocked out Solid 200lb heavyweight Dan Porky Flynn in one of the more dominating performances of all time. Flynn had never been knocked out before, and it would take sam langford far more rounds to put flynn away.

How do you know he took heavy punches? He knocked out Sharkey and Maher so fast I doubt he took any leather from either of them. He did get hit by Choynski, but when he got hit he went down. Corbett, a notoriousely light hitter floored Fitzimmons with 1 punch. fitzsimmons had to grab on to the referee causing a long count and saving himself being counted out. Fitz was also knocked out by middleweight Dan Hall.

I think Ketchell would swarm all over Fitz not giving him any room to breathe and not giving him enough room to get off his best shots. Fitz will be smothered by a machine. Ketchell threw combinations and flurries that fitz has never seen before. this one could be over quick.

I dont need to rethink what I wrote, I know what I wrote. Most historians rate Ketchel as not only the greatest middleweight of all time, but the hardest hitter as well. Sam Langford fought 6 even rounds with a prime Sam Langford. Langford was a better puncher and better fighter than Fitzsimmons.

 

Jim Jefries met ONE man who weighed 200lbs.Not counting his comeback against Johnson.