JEFFRIES V CHUVALO?

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I will yield to you if you feel you can judge off a photo that accurately. I can't tell. Sonny Liston looked as muscular as Jeff to me, was listed as 6' 1" and weighed 204 for Bethea in 1958 in his mid to late twenties. Chuvalo looks as muscular as Jeff to me, and weighed 207 for Cleroux in 1961. Joe Baksi was 6' 1" and weighed just over 200 lbs in 1943 when he was about the same age as the young Jeff.

So the photos don't impress me as proving he couldn't have weighed in the 200 to 210 lb. range in 1897. The action photo with Choynski doesn't show to me a size gap of more than what I would expect from a light-heavy against a large heavy, or 30 to 40 lbs.

one thing, though, his height. I think we can be fairly certain he was 6' even. He was measured by a Harvard professor in 1902 and I take that as definitive. Not as solid as evidence, but films of him with others like Corbett show he was not all that tall, and obviously shorter than Corbett.

 

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I think the apparent size of the legs could depend on the trunks. Later trunks tended to flare a bit, so it is hard to tell the exact contours of the hips. Jeff was in the era of tight trunks, so it was noticeable.

But if you are certain, you are certain. I am not.

 

Tracy Callis ,whom Mendoza calls one of the foremost experts on Jeffries ,[he rates Jeffries no1all time ] lists Jeff as 6' 2.5" some expert!

 

I find it very doubtful that a heavyweight champion who has been the subject of 3 biographies would not have his entire record discovered by 2017.

This is Baker's weight seven months before the Jeffries fight,I think we can be reasonably certain it is accurate since it was for the middleweight title and both men would have been required to weigh in.

23rd October1896 Henry Baker 159lbs v Dan Creedon 159lbs Middleweight Title 20rds.
So, unless you think it possible in1896 that a boxer could add 16lbs of muscle to his frame in 7 months, I think we can assume Baker was overweight/fat for his fight with Jeffries.

 

"would not have his entire record discovered by 2017"

The word record means what is recorded. If no one kept records of the fights, there is no record to discover. (I admit it is far less likely with Corbett--a world famous figure--after the 1880's), but with fighters who were obscure at that point in their career, of course.

It is like for example an old west gunslinger who killed five men in towns. The newspapers have records of those shootings. He also killed two men out on the range. These killings were never linked to him. The record has it that he killed five men. But he actually killed seven. History is not everything that happened but only what is recorded as happening.

I found that 159 lb. claim for Baker on a website called box stats. it is the only source I could find that had it, and I don't know where they got it. They also have these weights for Baker

Billy Woods 9-17-1894 (Baker at 170 lbs.)
Joe Butler 6-27-1896 (Baker at 175 lbs.)
Frank Slavin 7-20-1896 (Baker at 170 lbs.)
Jim Jeffries 5-18-1987 (Baker at 175 lbs.)

I would take that Creedan weight as evidence, but shaky evidence w/o knowing more. They might have weighed in, but who knows before commissions. Was it a middleweight title fight? Or was that just a promotional claim?

What is reasonable is that generally Baker fought at the 170-175 lb. level and seems to have been comfortable and effective at that weight.

*Interestingly, the Baker discussion has worked for me to Jeff's favor. I didn't realize Baker was a championship contender.

 

A couple of observations.

Jeffries seems to have dehydrated himself to make weight in some of his early fights, in a misguided belief that it would improve his endurance. He realized the error of his ways by the time of the Munro fight.

It should also be noted that heavyweight fights of the period, didn't usually have a formal weigh in. The fighters reported their weights, and it was taken on trust. Inevitably some fighters misused this facility to gain advantage.

Jeffries seems to have been honest in reporting his weight, but you can never be sure.

 

Duplicate.

 

That is the pleasure of the whole thing.

Reconstructing Jeffries is a bit like trying to reconstruct what a dinosaur was like as a living animal.

There is a surprise round every corner!

 

Baker is classified as a middleweight and we dont have any weights for his fights after Jeffries. You are adding two and two and making five! Champion contender at middleweight if you need to hang your hat on that then you have already lost!

 

You absolutely cannot trust Boxrec records from theat era.

Jeff Clark is one of the greatest middleweights of Jack Johnson's era, and half of his current record on Boxrec was missing ten years ago!

Boxrec is a best guess based on the current research, and nothing more!

 

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I rely on thoroughly researched biographies.

 

Perhaps you would be good enough to lend me your biography of Baker.