Joe Calzaghe vs. James Toney @ SMW.

Foxy 01 · Oct 2, 2014

HerolGee said: ↑

benn would stop joe, now you mention it.

never dig when you are in a hole, mate.
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Aah didums.

There is no end to your stupidity, which it appears is only surpassed by your arrogance. Are you now claiming to know more than Benn? I think you will find he said he was glad he didn't fight Calzaghe because people should try eating 70 or 80 of those so called " slaps " every round and see how they feel.

New shovel for you is it?

ribtickler68 · Oct 2, 2014

:

HerolGee said: ↑

only way this could actualy happen is if you fool Joe into thinking he is facing a 45 year old toney and not the prime 20something toney this thread refers to. Otherwsie, no way on earth does cowardly joe summon the guts to face JT.

And so, by malicious lie we convince Calzaghe that we have lined up past it great 45 year old James Toney, upon hearing which Joe grins with joy telling his welsh fans that old toney is still prime despite him having no real titles and a string of recent defeats.

And so on the night of the fight, Joe will climb into the ring LAUGHING and WHOOPING, expecting to get easily outboxed early on, but then later rally against a totally gassed JT using pitter patter misses for last gasp split decision over his flatlined opponent - at which point Joe plans to showboat-hump toney during his heart attack, then whoop with joy over his narrow ugly victory.

IMAGINE THE LOOK OF HORROR on Joe's face then, when on the actual night of the fight, Joe sees prime James Toney striding towards the ring - Joes whooping grin turns to gibberingly sweaty howls of disbelieving fear as he tries to scarper for the exit. BUt there is nowhere to run.

Watch then as Joe repeatedly tries to injure himself by ramming his head against the cornerposts so he can feign injury, pull out of the fight and instead go face tocker pudwill again next month.
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HerolGee · Oct 2, 2014

Foxy 01 said: ↑

Aah didums.

There is no end to your stupidity, which it appears is only surpassed by your arrogance. Are you now claiming to know more than Benn? I think you will find he said he was glad he didn't fight Calzaghe because people should try eating 70 or 80 of those so called " slaps " every round and see how they feel.

New shovel for you is it?
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been has not fought calzaghe, so has zero evidence to offer about joes weak punches that he is infamous for eventually when enough people knew him towards his retirement.

I can provide you one shovel yes, now you are asking nicely.

enough now, bored of you until you answer.

Foxy 01 · Oct 2, 2014

HerolGee said: ↑

I can provide you one yes, now you are asking nicely.

enough now, bored of you until you answer.
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Now off you trot like a good dog.

I'll whistle next time I expect you to come to heel.:hi:

UnleashtheFURY · Oct 2, 2014

Calzaghe decision.

anton · Oct 10, 2014

Toney pretty easily

Bokaj · Oct 10, 2014

ForemanJab said: ↑

The Toney-Jirov was pretty darn close. I had it tied going into the last round with Toney only edging it after getting the knockdown. Jirov hit Toney with a lot of hard punches, missing many but still landing a lot.
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Don't agree in the slightest. I had it about as the judges did.

Can't believe how many give fighters points for just throwing, without doing any actual damage. It's absolutely useless to throw a lot of punches without hitting anything. And that's why Jirov was exhausted in the last round.

If the much fitter fighter of the two is the one in far the worse shape towards the end, you can be pretty damn sure that the fight hasn't been going his way.

HerolGee · Oct 10, 2014

Brit Sillynanny said: ↑

Must be nothing but zirconium wherever you watch athletes. Calz was hardly a natural athlete.

Strengths: okay hand speed

"Okay" like a guy who runs the 100m above 10 seconds. If you take the fastest 2000 times in history you can barely find a dozen times by white athletes and all of those are near the absolute bottom of those 2000 recorded marks. Joe was simply fast compared to other white guys. Ringside at the Hopkins fight (and Bernard for all his attributes he certainly is not considered to have extraordinary hand speed), Joe looked less quick or comparable AT BEST - to Hopkins. Joe's handspeed is slower than Andre Ward by a distance.

Strengths: conditioned for high activity

No doubt about it, Joe put in the miles in the Welsh hills trying to cut weight to make the 168 lb limit. The struggle to make weight meant his "aerobic" efforts could never be sacrificed. Joe's engine was the difference when he met Hopkins. Prime versus prime would have negated that advantage entirely. Seven years is seven years. The years mean a lot more late in a career.

The flip side to that running to cut weight was Joe could never put on ANY muscle. His lack of upper development was because a little bit of muscle would have sent him up to light heavyweight. Combine Joe's horrible punch technique with his lack of arm and shoulder development meant a big SMW who didn't have equivalent power. Not early in his career not ever. The issue of his "hands" is a red herring. He simply didn't have the elements to be a big puncher - didn't have the innate timing, didn't have the footwork to get in position, didn't have the developed strength, and DID NOT throw naturally. Joe TKO'd a bunch of overweight, old, non-talents in his first 22 odd fights and many of those were dismal stoppages. After that, pretty much nothing.

Weaknesses: Since Joe didn't train in the gym against any laudable talent. He was never familiar with the feints, quickness, and innate talent of REAL natural fighters (like Toney). It is hard to gauge Joe as he managed to spend most of his career fighting dismal lesser athletes almost without exception and still managed to struggle to look good. When he fought Eubank he kept walking into the same right hand for the entire fight. Fortunately, he was fighting a drained Eubank who struggled with the pace. When he fought Mitchell he got caught and rocked/dropped. Here in Vegas, when he fought an incredibly old Hopkins he kept being unable to judge the distance and his reactions were poor. He simply looked the INFERIOR athlete from ringside. Bernard looked horrible - but, there was no doubting who was the SUPERIOR boxing talent. He was simply old and unable to sustain activity (the same problem he has continued to exhibit in every fight in these years). Watching Joe advance at Bernard flailing with two handed hammers made him look an off-balance ****** that night. He looked nothing like a vaunted ATG with seven years of youth on his side - merely a man with seven years of relative youth on his side.

I think Joe is a good fighter who benefited from having the promotion (and all that accrued from that) for nearly every SINGLE fight of his entire career and fighting in a terrible era (as Bernard did as well). But, he is easily a vastly overrated fighter. At his best, he managed to win barely more than half a fight against Mikkel Kessler (who edged the first half of the fight in my opinion with by far the heavier landed shots). Against Eubank, I gave him the same differential. He merely won the rounds he won by a greater distance than the rounds I gave to Chris. Against Hopkins, I gave him a slight edge only on thrown punches but his work was terrible and his accuracy dismal. But Bernard was also absolutely terrible in the fight. OTOH, he was old. Old fighters have off nights. That was his. There have been more and there will continue to be more.

There is a difference between having "great legs" and having well conditioned legs. Joe is well conditioned from all of the roadwork needed to cut weight. His actual ring movement - side to side - fwd and back - the ability to bounce left and left again and vice versa - are nothing special. He has neither the extremely powerful calves so notable on Pacquaio which allows him to spring forward into range exploding the left hand before one can recognize the threat nor the ability to spin or rotate sharply with a tight turning radius. Calz simply can keep moving for twelve.

As for Toney, it is irrelevant to focus on his off nights because he always had issues with weight and this comparative is about each fighter at their best. A most telling indicator of a fighter's standing, abilities, and capabilities can be evidenced in his longevity. Toney was able to fight into a very advanced old age. Toney was ALSO able to move up MULTIPLE divisions and be highly competitive. It is true that US boxing has been in a long long decline and the quality of his era and the years he has fought is certainly up for critique. But, I have no doubt that Toney would catch Joe with hard clean punches that Joe would not see coming and hurt him. I don't believe in the fallacy that Joe had an extraordinary chin. I believe he (and Frank) limited the times in entered the ring and had to face a real threat. Watching Joe at ringside and seeing how poor he was at understanding the feints from an ancient Hopkins and only being able to charge forward with his face tells me that a Hopkins from '97 to '99 would have hurt him and finished the job.

Toney has an abundance of guile and is very adept at setting up a big punch. His chin is well proven all the way up to heavyweight. He would take Joe's activity until he caught a lapse and go right through the guard and crush Joe's mandible. Joe never had to face real adversity due to matchmaking and control of the environment. I don't believe he would have been prepared for true ATGs. You can't fight Woodall's and Starie's and Reid's and be prepared for fighter's with better natural punching ability than yourself. Without that experience, it is hard to paint a great scenario when he is forced onto the back foot - if he was facing a prime Hopkins, if he is feinted and hit with clean lead right hands from RJJ, or caught by a combination of crosses and hooks and uppercuts from Toney.

Prime for prime, is essentially saying best against best. When conditioning is not a factor, when age is not an issue, then I don't see the talent in Joe to avoid taking real punishment as he simply did not have good defensive abilities. He won most of his fights with his offensive output and usually against guys who were inferior athletes. In a matchup with a Toney, Hopkins, or RJJ he would simply be outgunned and the most crucial factor would be timing and reflexes. Like the 100M with the 10+ sec 100m ... he is good .. but far from extraordinary.

Toney by TKO.
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best post, though joe might survive to the end in Wales where refs are known to carry home fighters to their corners after knockdowns.

Also Joe might win by tko in Wales if he pays ref to stop fight on the first three clean punches he lands on toney late in the fight. Assuming he survives that long.

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Joe Calzaghe vs. James Toney @ SMW.

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