Joe Frazier KO 2 Manuel Ramos 1968

Two posts with good inside info.

 

I remember a programme hyping the up coming FOTC, Ali is seen watching the Frazier v Ramos fight,he says Ramos was looking to go home and added "aint that terrible?"

 

Ramos was held in relatively high esteem for a while and a lot of people, particularly on the West Coast questioned why a Jimmy Ellis or a Leotis Martin got into the WBA tournament over him when neither of their records were any better. He flamed out early but he was highly regarded in the time frame in which he fought Frazier.

As for Mendozas nonsense assertion that Durham steered clear of punchers Id love to see his logic. Martin wasnt some monster puncher. He could punch as well as any other 200 pound man, which is to say he could punch hard, but outside of knocking out a geriatric Liston (who was kicking his ass most of the fight) where are these wins that would have made anyone think he was this monster puncher and sent them running the other way? Norton? He was Joe Fraziers stablemate and was just as intent on not fighting his friend as Frazier was. Lyle? Lyle spent his entire career fighting Fraziers leftovers and Frazier usually did better against them fighting them earlier and fresher. The two times Lyle got to a position where he could ask for a Frazier fight he got beat by Quarry and Foreman who both proved to be the bigger puncher in those fights and both of whom Frazier went on to fight soon after. Lyle got a title shot against Ali (the ultimate goal, not a Frazier fight) and got stopped in 11, a pretty shot Frazier went 14 with Ali right after. I dont see that Frazier, Durham, or anyone else had any reason to fear these guys. Shavers? Lets see... knocked out by Ron Stander, Frazier went on to knock out. Knocked out by Quarry, who Frazier knocked out two fights later. In the meantime who were these guys that Shavers beat that had Joe running scared?? Chuck Leslie who Shavers went ten with years after Joe had knocked him out in 3? Was it Charlie Polite who Shavers stopped in 3 6 years after Frazier had stopped him in 2 rounds in his 7th fight? Was it Jimmy Ellis who got caught while in process of battering Shavers in a corner 3 years after Frazier had stopped him? Thats the thing, guys like Lyle and Shavers got their KO reputations by following in Frazier's footsteps and when they got to knocking on the door of challenging somebody like a Frazier they got knocked out by someone Frazier went on to fight. I dont know how you can hold Frazier accountable for their inability to rise to the top before he retired.

Another point here where you misspeak is that you say Durham steered Frazier clear of punchers. Durham died in August of 1973. Shavers didnt even get nationally recognized until June of 1973 when he beat Ellis (who Frazier had already beaten). Shavers lost in his next fight via one round stoppage to Quarry (who Frazier had already beaten). So you see, Durham wasnt avoiding Shavers because he was nobody until right before Durham died and got knocked out in 1 by a Frazier victim right after. Likewise, Ron Lyle fought his first big fight in February of 1973, Quarry (former Frazier victim) and lost a one sided schooling. In January of 1973 Frazier had fought and lost to George Foreman, the biggest puncher on the scene. So its an odd claim to make that Durham was avoiding punchers like Shavers and Lyle, two guys who made their names beating Frazier retreads and two guys who lost to Frazier victims right at the only moment that Durham would have taken notice of them. The math doesnt add up to that argument. Its a nice argument if you dont think too much about it or know what you are talking about. But the reality is that the timing simply wasnt right. Prior to that who were these big punchers that Durham steared Frazier clear of? Martin? No. Martin wasnt a huge puncher to begin with. He was no better puncher than Quarry. Quarry ended his career with a slightly lower KO% than Martin but when he fought Frazier his % was WAY higher against a better class of opposition. Bonavena's was higher. Chuvalo's was higher. Even Ali's was higher. Several others were right in the same range as Martins and most fought better opposition to get to that percentage. Then, again, there is the fact that Martin was a stablemate of Joe's until shortly before the Liston fight, largely unknown, and after stopping Liston and gaining the first real momentum of his career where he legitimately could have begged a shot with Frazier his career ended via a detached retina. So no, Mendoza is completely off the mark with his point.

 

All great but it's styles and the fact that Frazier fought his whole career with damaged vision that got worse and worse .. Name a swarmer that didn't get hit ? Didn't exist. The fact that Frazier fought as he fought and beat men down with damaged vision is exceptional. The folks that question his chin simply don't know the whole story .. as far as Lyle goes he was a Frazier sparring partner in the early seventies and Joe did numbers on him .. that being said Frazier had the style ands physical limitations to give any huge puncher a punchers shot say more than an Ali did but it would always take a certain type of animal skill wise and will wise to beat a prime Frazier , say 68 - 71 .. he was in my opinion top five at heavyweight P4P.

 

Interestingly after this beating with Frazier, Ramos had 14 more defeats Before he took Lyle the full ten rounds.

 

Lyle wasnt a Frazier sparring partner. Before he turned pro he travelled to Philly to spar with Frazier in the run up to the FOTC but he had sparred with Ali in Miami first and Ali warned Lyle that as rugged and rough as Joe was he was liable to inadvertantly hurt Lyle without meaning to. Lyle made the trip but opted to spar with Ken Norton instead. It was a short sparring session with Norton in control and Lyle just trying to learn. That was the only time he was in Fraziers camp that Ive ever heard of.

 

Did he? I thought that was where he ended up vs chose?

 

Good stuff, guys.

 

He sparred with Lyle several times. I heard it direct from Joe, from Marvis and from Larry H.

 

Fine then dig it up and show me where it happened.

 

Yes.

 

Just in interviews that I saw Lyle always spoke with the utmost respect for Joe Frazier.

 

Ill be waiting right here Mr Historian. As with every other time Ive asked you to back up one of your dumbass claims or arguments you will disappear.