Joe Frazier vs. Sonny Liston

If a mediocre 180 lbs- fighter like Marshall could floor Liston, than... comparisons like that are irrelevant IMO. Fact is, that Liston looked great against solid competition, but against his only elite fighter he faced (Ali) he lost twice badly. There are lot of fighters like that, look great against mediocre/ solid competition but failed against the best of their weight class. The Patterson- wins are very good for his legacy, but not good enough that I automatically favour him over a proven ATG like Frazier. I have Liston in my Top 15, both, head-to-head and legacy-wise, but to favour him automatically over fighters like Marciano, Frazier, etc. is a bit overacted, Liston is on ESB beside Ali the strongest HW head-to-head, a honour that he doesn´t deserve...

 

Terrible assessment. You write Liston off for something that happened in his 10th pro fight, a fight he won via stoppage. If a bloated aged light heavyweight like Moore could floor Marciano......get the point? And this was peak Marciano compared to the Liston Marshall fought.

 

If Cooper could deck Ali, Howard SRL, Snipes Holmes yada yada.

 

I know that it was a stupid example, that´s why I picked it as an example. My point was just, that you can´t use the logic "Bonavena floored Frazier twice, why couldn´t Liston do...", of course, every ATG has a chance to KO another ATG in a fantasy matchup, but I don´t like the "Fighter A beats Fighter B, so Fighter B can´t beat fighter C who beat fighter A"- thing or something like that, you get what I mean?

 

Sorry mate, me and WT took things at face value instead of digging deeper.

 

At one point, I thought a prime Liston would have easily defeated Frazier, but after rethinking the matter, I'm not so sure. I can't think of too many fighters whom Liston faced that would really take the fight to him the way that Frazier would.

 

I dont look at the bonavena fight was an example why sonny would beat frazier.

I look at the Liston-Patterson fights, and Frazier-Buster Mathis fights as fights that tell me Liston would have a strong shot at beating joe.

 

But how many can you think of would have taken it to Joe like Liston?

 

6'3 215lb Big Cat Williams tried twice, and failed miserably. Williams had just as fast hands as frazier. Patterson twice tried, failed miserably.


One the otherhand, We did all see what George did to Joe. All Power and Strength Equal, George was less skilled and less accurate than Sonny.

 

Joe said recently he just never would have had an answer for Foreman. Too big and stong. Liston was a little smaller, less mobile, but similar and with a very good uppercut like George. It would seem that anyone coming to Liston would be in trouble and that is all Joe could have done here. There were a few guys Joe just wouldn't do well with, Foreman, Dempsey, Louis, Ali, and,,,Liston.

 

Good point.

 

When he fought Cassius Clay. He looked pretty frustrated against Machen as well, hence the low blows.


It's not so much that Liston is so bad late, but it's that Frazier is good late. His pressure is relentless. Those left hooks rolled off his shoulders in unstopable fashion.

 

Neither of those men were Joe Frazier, and frankly I think Joe would bring a lot more to the table than those guys would. I also happen to think that Floyd was suffering from cold feet in those fights.

Goerge may not have had the jab that Liston had, but good jabbers are something Joe was usually able to overcome. Foreman demolished Frazier with hooks and uppercuts at mid to close range that were lifting him off the canvas. Foreman and Liston fought totally different styles, and Goerge was arguably stronger and definately bigger. Not to mention, Frazier didn't exactly stay down and quit when Foreman was decking him. I also happen to think that this wasn't an absolute peak Frazier anyway.

Bottom line, Frazier beat better fighters than Sonny Liston himself, but I doubt the same can be said in reciprocity.

 

Big Cat flopped nearly every time he stepped up. Frazier beat the greatest of all time when he was close to his best. Williams is a good fighter, but not in Joe's league.

 

He must have been one hell of a one-trick pony then, considering he beat Muhammad Ali when he was close to his best, and a lot better than when he picked up his career best wins, i.e. Frazier II&III, Norton, Foreman, Lyle, Shavers, Young, etc.