Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

Bokaj, thank you. For the record, youhave made many posts as of late that I have admired.

 

His jack sniffing is just selective, just like his bias is.

 

Thank you! Nice Christmas Present :good

 

On a different subject: How about a list of the best ginger fighters?


1. Buchanan











2. Paul Scholes?

 

On video, Bingo looks every bit the 5-10 he's listed on boxrec. I am well aware of his power. I am only stating that it is worth noting when Ellis or an ancient Folley go the distance unscathed and Frazier goes life and death with such a crude fighter. The question is absolutely legitimate; the answer remains up for debate. I myself think Frazier had a decent to good chin that could be dented by larger, powerful foes.

Ramos was purely a ham and egger. I will not take seriously any attempt to make him more than that.

 

Your point was regarding Joe's chin and mine was that Bonavena had serious power. He may have lost to a prime Ellis, who by the way was a terrific cruiserweight and an old Folley as a young pro but so what? He gave Ali, Frazier and Patterson, three heavyweight champions, all they could handle. That qualifies him to me ..

Ramos was no great fighter but he was a hard punchinh dangerous one. Again we are talking about ability to take punishment ...

Back to Fraziers chin, you are entitled to your opinion but keep in mind he fought half his career with severe vision issues compounded by the fact that he fought the toughest style to survive, never ending aggression, being willing to take to give .. factoring these items in I feel his ability to absorb punishment was quite exceptional but obviously made for a short career.

 

Foreman was tired going into the 9th. The way the fight was going, he wasn't going to get the KO.

 

Exactly. Like I said it wasn't just Foreman who made Frazier knees do funny things.

 

Yet, he unloaded a lot on Perralta in the 9th. By the 10th round he was clearly more exhausted. This is well documented and comes straight from the horse's mouth. Nobody is saying he was going to KO him but he tried in the 9th round. That was the round he thought was last due to his corner telling him that. Why are you willfully arguing against something that's well documented?

 

Yeah. He actually hurt Ali worse than Foreman managed to do. Ali was close to going down in the 9th.

 

The reply of Young and Perralta was given to HE grant who asked who didn't Foreman KO. This was my initial reply,. rewind the tape and you'll see it.

I agree that Foreman was tired. The real history of it was cornerman Sandy Saddler suggested Foreman step on the gas pedal. If this was a 12 or 15 round fight, Foreman could have been in trouble.

Foreman had trouble vs good boxer types who had some defense and good durability. He smashed forward moving types, or those with slow feet. Frazier was the former. It did not take Foreman lokf to find and hurt Frazier. Those with top chins would not have gone down so quickly vs. Foreman.

 

This is where we differ. You think Bonevena had serious power? Did he ever KO a ranked contender?

Bonevena fought the following ranked guys:

Lyle, Patterson, Ali, Frazier, Martin, Folley, Ellis, and Mildenberger. The only one he was close to stopping was Frazier. By Frazier's own admission he was close to losing.

I'd say Bonevena's power on a 1-10 scale was about a 6.5. Ocsar is what I'd call a solid hitter. As Seamus mentioned, Bonevenna wasn't piratically skilled or fast. Yet he's likely the best puncher Frazier beat. And we saw than Bonevenna hit hard enough to stop Frazier. What if Oscar hit a little harder, was faster, or had more skill?

Sometimes in threads I think we tend to lose focus of the topic. In this case its Frazier vs Super heavyweights like Lewis, Klitschko, and Bowe, all of which hit harder than Bonevena, have better skills, much better size and better hand speed.

Another point I like to present is Frazier was often known as a slow starter, and that not going to help him in a fantasy sense vs skilled super heavies, who will welcome the slow start as they win the early rounds and start doing damage.

I'm not saying Frazier can't win here. My thinking is he is not likely, and many here are over rating his chin which is something a smaller guy needs to take out a bigger, more versatile opponent. Frazier had limited versatility. He won't win with a jab, and his right cross and uppercut were under developed. Frazier also was not a cover up and counter guy. Frazier could fight a decent boxer one way, and thats moving forward. Essentialy Frazier was a dynamic oriented left hook specialist who is going to be at a severe height, reach, brute strength, and power in these fantasy match ups.

 

No, mine was was not who Foreman did not ko. My question was who Foreman lacked the power to KO, big difference. The one time he hit Young all night, in round 7, exhaustd by heat again, Foreman almost took him out with one shot. Again we are talking about ability to take punishment.

You can choose to rank Oscar's power where you find convinient but the facts are he dropped Frazier, badly rocked Ali and dropped Chuvalo with a clean , solid shot. In additon, Joe came back to cleanly defeat him, taking his best shots without ever again buckling over the following 23 rounds the men fought.

I think you are co-mingling positions regarding a a fighter's power with their ability to connect in attempts to make a point. In additon, I again disagree with you about Bonavena. I think he would have been a nightmare for Wlad and he hit just as hard as Vitali or Bowe.

I agree this is all about Joe as a superheavyweight but the point made as to why he could not compete by some here is his inability to take punishment which is so off it is absurd. Frazier was one of the toughest men to ever lace on the gloves.

Head to head I say he destroys Wlad who had zero chin and lacks stamina if forced to fight which he would have to do v.s. Frazier. We are clearly seeing Vitali is both innacurate with his right and also can barely crack an egg. The fact that he has all those KO's tells me more about his opponents that his power. While Vitali has a good chin his own stamina is so-so and his skin tissue paper. He puffs up and bleeds quite easily . Joe would beat both Klit Brothers.

Bowe was another that lacked stamina and a great chin. While a prime Bowe might be a far more dangerous challange early than the Klits, I still favor Joe .

The only superheavy I would favor was Lennox simply because his overall skill set was superior to either Klitschko and his discipline and dedication surpassed that of Bowe. That being said he was no lock either.

I find the the superheavyweights as a whole and the Klitscho's in gereral as vastly overated by some. I say this respecting the good both brothers do bring to the game. However, I do not view them as some new level. They have skill sets that would allow them to defeat many but far from all. As always, styles would dictate.

 

Same here.

I think he definitely loses to Lennox Lewis.

But his athleticism, speed and talent may see him to victory against Vitali, Wlad and Bowe.