Frazier and Norton certainly had the advantage of proving themselves in an era when heavyweights were bigger and stronger than the average guy of the Louis era. It's a combination of the American diet and a more scientific approach to training. But that doesn't mean Frazier and Norton necessarily faced competitors whose boxing skills and courage were better commensurate with their size and strength. Jim Braddock and Max Schmeling were much slicker boxers than they're given credit for, easily equal to most of the competition Frazier and Norton faced. Earnie Shavers was comparable to Max Baer and like Baer easily blasted through some fighters who were expected to give him better competition: Jimmy Young, Jimmy Ellis and Ken Norton. Unlike the Louis era, tho', Shavers was something of a rarity, a fighter willing to throw caution to the wind. I almost try to avoid looking at heavyweight fights from past decades because they put today's crop to shame in terms of courage and willingness to take risks in exchange for a shot at victory. Arguably, Joe Louis is, so far, the hardest punching heavyweight in history, who is or was the complete package: Not just an overhand right like Shavers; a left hook and right uppercut like Tyson; a left hook like Frazier. Opponents and sparring partners routinely described Louis' blows as deceptively powerful and painful, not looking like much from a spectator's viewpoint because he didn't load up or reach off balance to connect. His shots were short, crisp and perfectly timed, like the Holyfield right that KO'd Qawi in their rematch.
Ali would win this on points. It would be far from a comfortable win though, I believe his great chin would be tested to its limits as would his heart & stamina. I see Ali having to get up off the canvas (maybe even more than once) along the way to his victory. This would be a very dangerous and testing fight for Ali.
Norton winning against Louis is one of the more surprising things I've heard. In my view, Louis is all wrong for Kenny. I'll go with Ali by UD.
If I were to arrange this matchup I would choose the best version of these men. To start with, I would pick the Joe Louis from 1938, who defeated Shmeling in one round. He was 24 years old, and had a record of 39-1-33. This was quite possibly the best Joe Louis or at least very close. As far as Ali goes, I would probably go with the 1967 Ali who fought his last fight of the 60's against Zora Folley. He was 25 years old, and undefeated 29-0-22, with I believe 9 title defenses. In 1938, at age 24, Louis was 6'2", 198 Lbs. In 1967, at age 25, Ali stood 6'3", and weighed 211 Lbs. Louis's best wins to date were over Max Schmeling, James Braddock, Tommy Farr, Primo Carnera, Bob Pastor, and Max Baer. Ali's best wins up to 1967 were, Sonny Liston, Henry Cooper, Floyd Patterson, Earnie Terrell, Zora Folley and Cleveland Williams. Matchup: I don't know if Louis was a harder hitter than Sonny Liston but let's just say that he hit harder than everyone else Clay fought up to that point, and certainly was by far the best technician that Ali would have faced. He went 15 rounds on multiple occasions in his career, and took punishment from Max Baer, Joe Walcott, and numerous others, therefore, I don't see Ali scoring a KO or even TKO. He had very underrated handspeed, and could fight at all three ranges of distance, close, middle, long. Lastly, he was arguably the best heavyweight combination puncher in history, which he has still not been surpassed even to this day. He could throw combos, even while being just a few inches from the mid point of a fighter's body. He could dispose of giant heavyweights like Primo Carnera and Buddy Baer, or he could dispatch short awkward fighters like Tony Galento. He could also, solve the mysteries of quick skilled boxers like Conn. There was no profile of fighter that Louis couldn't/didn't beat in his career. Ali was according to most experts, the fastest heavyweight of all time, and certainly much faster than anyone from Louis's era. He possesed a signifacntly long reach for even a fighter of 6'3", and utilized the ring and footwork like no other fighter since middleweight Sugar Ray Robinson. Although he was a pure boxer, he did posses a fair amount of power and finishing abilty, especially in his 20's, as he had 23 knockouts in 29 wins up through 1967. He was a man who through out his entire career would never truly be knocked out, and proved his heart and chin against some of the hardest hitters in the sports history, even well into his 30's. Ali had tremendous stamina and could keep up his production rate of punches, even in the late rounds of grueling championship fights. What's more, he knew how to play mind games and phsyche fighters out, which more often than not took them out of their fight game. Lastly, Ali was quite possibly one of , or perhaps thee best adaptor in heavyweight history. He could learn to overcome and change his method of attack, whereas so many other champions boxed poorly if their initial fight plan had failed them. Conclusion : If I were forced to make a prediction, my vote would have to go to Ali by a close, yet unanimous decision. Louis would definately have his moments in this fight, and he'd certainly make Ali work his tail off for the win, but at the end of the day, Ali is just too fast and technically sound for Joe.
Yeah i've done that. Sylistically Tunney would be the most difficult for Louis I think. Reasons would be swiftness of foot, quick shots and good handspeed. The same thing where Ali is concerned? Probably, but not to the same extent as Billy Conn. Ali has slower hands and feet than Billy. Also, Billy Conn moved in a very tight circle, something else Ali didn't do. "Nightmare sytlistically" and "watch them both fight" isn't enough for me, i'd like to hear a bit more.
Movement bothered Louis- Conn, Walcott, Charles. Of course, Ali probably isn't a quick as a blown up middleweight but he's much stronger and has a chin 10 times as sturdy, and his superior power to light heavies like Conn and Tunney make him far more dangerous. Not that his power was great but it was decent. The pattern of an Ali-Louis fight would likely play out like the first Conn meeting, with a separate ending. "He can run but he can't hide...but this fella never took a ten count in his life". Bad match up for Louis, in fact i'd be surprised if he won 2 out of 10 against a peak Ali. I'm not attempting to convince you, you've made your mind up already. That's fine.
What I am interested in is how the exchanges might go. I see Ali winning the early rounds though maybe Louis would pinch one or two on aggression (possibly not). These rounds are crucial. Ali's footwork is what keeps him ahead on points and out of trouble, it is also around three times (scientifically calculated!) less economical than Louis' footwork. Ali must pick up this shortfall by taking a toll with his jab throughout these rounds, and combo's would be nice too. Louis had that lovely shoulder roll, how would that do v Ali's punches? This only explores one end of the equation. The other end is that Ali has a lot, lot more to haul about the ring over a greater distance (because he doesn't use Conn's tighter circle). That's why I think the early exchanges are so important. If Louis can come through relatively unbattered, he is going to win this. You are right in what you say about Ali's chin, and the count, but Louis is the best composite puncher that Ali wold ever have faced. If Ali has to trade, with the power/arsenal deficiency, he will go or he will be rescued. I pick Louis, yes. I think that he could weather the Ali attack which would happen after 8 or 9 and take his man out late. But you are wrong what you say, I am open minded about it. The thing that irritates me about Ali-Anyone is you tend to get a lot of crash test dummy analysis, pages and pages about what Ali can do and will do and was capable of without a blink about the opposition. It has to be remembered that each of these guys would be facing the best he had ever taken on, and dismissing one as a "bad style match up" for the other is a little simplistic. There is certainly an element of that in this one, but I think it's at least reasonable to explore the specifics of a fight like this.
I would like to see stats on Ali's fights from 64, winning the championship against Liston through to the 67 Folley fight. How many punches he scored against how many he took. Be interesting to know don't you think?
Of course what this forum raly needs is another Ali Louis thread. Can we honestly say anything that has not already been said? "We gonna call Joe Louis the water mealon because he has a head shaped like a water mealon" Ali "You can run but you can't hide kid" Louis
Although this is actually the same one that CT started after we lost all the threads...has a life of its own!
Good post mate. Louis is just too slow moving I feel and cannot sustain the kind of pressure that would tire Ali out significantly. In fact, he could be stopped around the 10th if we're talking best nights, but it's fair to say it's a distance fight. I actually fancy both versions (e.g. 1966 and 1974) of Ali to beat Louis. I think Joe himself thought the young version might be too much (according to an interview I have from 1976), although he fancied himself against the Zaire model.