Yeah, I would say Simon was second tier regardless of his ratings. He went iinto the first Louis fight an 18-1 underdog. In comparision, Pastor was a 6 to 1 underdog in 1939. Buddy Baer a 6 to 1 underdog in his first fight with Louis. Conn was an 18 to 5 underdog. Lou Nova a 13 to 5 underdog. Clearly these men fought at far shorter odds against Louis, indicating that they were viewed as a level above Simon in 1941. Simon at 18 to 1 was only exceeded by Harry Thomas, Tony Musto, Al McCoy, and Gus Dorazio, all at 20 to 1. Jack Roper at 10 to 1 had shorter odds than Simon. Johnny Paycheck at 12 to 1 had shorter odds than Simon. Jimmy Bivins was a great young lightheavy prospect in 1941. He was not yet an ATG fighter. He lost to Tony Musto in his next fight after losing to Franklin. Savold, Blunt, Reddish, Musto, etc are a decent group, but not the top men in the division by any means. That would be Conn, Nova, and Pastor behind Louis. **All odds in championship fights from the 1976 Ring Record Book, page 117.
There is no comparision between Wills, generally viewed as the number one contender for years, and Franklin, who peaked at #2 before suffering a whole series of crushing ko defeats including Pastor, Harry Bobo, Joe Muscato, Lee Savold (2), etc.
I don't think Franklin is all that hard to figure out. He outlasted a small and somewhat green Bivins with a 27 lb weight pull. His other opponents were second-tier fellows, a not yet ready for prime time Savold, Blunt, Simon, etc. Pastor and Bobo were a step up. Pastor survived his early cannonading and then came on. I haven't seen Franklin on film, but off fight reports he had little defense and a shaky chin. If he didn't get a guy out of there early, he took a lot of punishment and simply did not have the skills or durability to survive against the top men. His stamina was probably also suspect.
Solid Rebuttal Old Fogster. Frankin could certainly punch though! Seemed to be a very dangerous fighter early. I think out of all the fighters, Elmer Ray got screwed the most. Just an underrated era in general. Louis dominating it speaks volumes of how great he was...The best who ever lived.
Thanx Old Fogster. For what it's worth, I sent a friend of mine a post about some of 1940's biggest punchers..He is a historian over at Cyber Boxing...He has this to say "Some other heavyweights from that era, who are mostly forgotten now, that could cripple an opponent are Lee Q. Murray, Curtis Sheppard, Tommy Gomez and Lem Franklin. Some scribes during the era stated that Franklin had more punching-power than Joe Louis and many felt that Franklin would one day be champion!"
How many scribes were there? Probably thousands. If you plow through those fellows, you probably can find writers to support almost any position. Anyway, no one doubts Franklin could punch, but he obviously didn't finish an opponent like Louis did and he didn't carry his power into the later rounds in the same way.
Your mention of Tommy Gomez brought back memories for me..Tommy Gomez of Tampa Fl was a great puncher at 181 pounds.Gomez KO'D 65 fighters in about 85 pounds... I saw the hard punching Tommy Gomez get ko'd by Jersey Joe Walcott in MSG ,1946...Walcott was too big and wily for little Tommy Gomez..But Tommy Gomez was a war hero and a great 181 pound puncher...
You saw Walcott-Gomez live? What happened? Did Walcott display terrific punching power in that fight?
The Joe Walcott I saw demolish Tommy Gomez in 1946 was a great puncher that night as Gomez though small was dead game..Tricky fighter was Walcott...The 32 year old Walcott was much quicker than the 38 year old Walcott that fought Marciano in 1952...I always thought that the prime Walcott would give ANYONE HELL...He was great the night I saw him in 1946...
I agree Walcott was a special fighter. I rate him in my top 15 all time. Prime Walcott is hell for anyone who ever lived. No doubt. He may have been quicker, but was he better? I doubt that. Walcott knocked out Charles in 1951, his best win, at field forbes in pittsburgh. He then fought the fight of his life for 12 rounds against Rock, as Heavyweight Champion just one year later in 52. After Gomez, Walcott would have lackluster affairs with Joey Maxim, and go 1-1 with Elmer Ray. He still was not a finished fighter yet..despite his younger perhaps faster reflexes(though his reflexes still looked mighty fast in 1951). Walcott did look great against Louis in 1947..perhaps his best performance. I think 1947-1952 were Walcott's best years..By this time he had multiple years of training under Bocchichio and Florio who did not take over his career until 1945.
Jersey Joe boxes the ears off the great Elmer Ray in 1947 http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...J&pg=6243,1900186&dq=jersey+joe+walcott&hl=en
The morning after Braddock's win over Baer he received a telegram from Rosenbloom. " Congratulations Jimmy.Now that you are the Champion, maybe I can get a crack at the heavyweight title,which I could not do when the great lover was the champion.Although I beat you once ,and can do it again, I hope you will show the world you are a real fighting champion and fight me this summer.Regards and good luck _ until we meet in the ring Maxie Rosenbloom".
Rosenbloom beat the great John Henry Lewis twice in 1935,before Maxie retired...The amazing thing about Rosenbloom who had 299 career bouts,is that there is no FILM existing of him fighting..Harry Greb has njo film of HIS fights but Greb was NINE years older than Maxie...These two great fighters just slipped under the radar,so to speak...Rosenbloom was built like a wrestler, but couldn't punch hard at all...
Bert. I know there is technicolor film of Rosenbloom boxing in a Hollywood movie in the late thirties or the early forties. Do you or perhaps Henry know what movie that was? Not the same as authentic fight footage, I know, but I saw it decades ago and would like to see it again.
OLD FOGEY, no I have never heard or seen any footage of Maxie Rosenbloom ,aside from his Hollywood comic roles.Never! But I did see an old film in the 1940s called the "Pittsburgh Kid ,starring Billy Conn...In one seen Billy Conn is sparring with the small but great Henry Armstrong..Very interesting...Billy Conn was better looking than the Hollywood stars... The most interesting Hollywood movie with a famous fighter vwas 'The prizefighter and the Lady " with Max Baer...He boxes, sings. and acts in that picture...Max Baer had as much personality as Ali...Check it out if possible...b.b.