Juan Manuel Marquez

saul_ir34 · Dec 14, 2011

MAIN is just a pure JMM hater. He is always talking ****.
Im sure he cried on November 12.

Hey MAIN so since we are bringing up resumes. Is Pac a worse fighter being that he lost and was KOd by 2 nobodies?? Ha what a glass chin on that guy!!!

the brown bomber · Dec 14, 2011

JMM is the most overrated boxer in modern history. Outside of his fights with Pac his resume is just good not great. You listen to the clueless masses and this guy is on the same level as Salvador Sanchez and Willie Pep.

Smokin' Joe · Dec 14, 2011

the brown bomber said: ↑

JMM is the most overrated boxer in modern history. Outside of his fights with Pac his resume is just good not great. You listen to the clueless masses and this guy is on the same level as Salvador Sanchez and Willie Pep.
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:rofl Bitter ******* much?

Spitfire7 · Dec 15, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

I believe I agree with you on almost all points, to a degree. The original intention of my post of that particular list was to show people that he wasn't simply a fighter who "had Pac's number" by sheer luck; hence references to green or limited fighters like Jaca, who I used as just that, references to a career that saw a man who fought everyone he could (someone was comparing Marquez to Iran Barkley and Pacquiao to Hearns, so bear with me if I sound overly celebratory when discussing his resume).

Not sure what you meant by your comparisons about Medina to Mosley. I think the Mosley that fought Pacquiao was so badly faded that Pacquiao's performance just barely justified making the fight in the first place. Not a bad win considering most couldn't beat him to the same level, but not really a good one considering few couldn't withstand and out-do Shane at that point. I also don't see why Barrera is understood as shot when he fought Marquez; past his prime, sure, but the way he performed against Marquez, the audience knowing how good Marquez is, suggests he wasn't close to shot. At that point his veteran boxing skills might have benefited him more than that extra charge that his peak youthful aggression might have given him. He didn't do badly at all avenging the loss to Juarez and against Pacquiao a second time, and don't believe people when they say he was just in it to survive. He was boxing well, but lost clearly.

Considering Marquez's management (and I blame Arum in his early run rather than Nacho; I don't see the big deal in turning down Pacquiao if they would eventually fight two years later, but I do see an issue in the WBA not enforcing him as Hamed's mandatory or never being able to touch Morales, which was not a duck, but simply not a necessary fight for Erik.) While I would agree that Marquez is probably on the slightly lower-end of the batch of his contemporaries, I believe they converge much closer than the average fan does. I think Floyd is lower than people have him, along with Pacquiao, due to "spectacular" wins that sometimes lack quality; I rank Mosley higher than most based on divisional dominance and a few key great wins, and consider DLH's victories sometimes overlooked by the "biggest fights" argument; I also, forgive me, consider Barrera and Morales to be slightly overrated not because of their resumes, which are great, but because of the fact they beat the **** out of each other 3 times and everyone loves them for it. Do I rank him above those two? As of now, the longevity factor does it for me, but I've watched the other two's careers as a fan without the depth of analysis I have for Marquez. Comparing him to Pacquiao is problematic for me, because I have him winning on all three of my cards, and Pacquiao's run since their second encounter hasn't wowed me enough to think his level of competition blows Marquez's out of the water. Pac moved up to LW to face the weakest title-holder while Marquez knocked out the 3 best champion-level operators at the weight. Hatton, DLH to some extent, Cotto in particular, Clottey, and Margarito probably outweigh that lightweight run for me, on top of his impressive run before that. So in most cases I'd rank Pacquiao far ahead, but as time goes on, I may start reviewing the quality of his resume (vs the wow-factor) and start confiding in my own scores more. Floyd I'd have to wait and see where ends up (Pacquiao the same, actually), but to be honest, I don't think there's that much between him and Marquez; I really don't.

I don't think Marquez is at all out of his league when pitting his resume against most of his contemporaries, and his level of consistent opposition of overlooked, underrated, and highly ranked opponents, many times with very few close losses or none at all. Say what you will about ranking systems, but falling within the top 5 or holding one of the main belts is seldom an easy task, and if you watch the footage, these fighters often had solid fundamentals. Peden was limited, but went on to compete at the elite level, and challenge Campbell's dominance (in a moment of stupidity, but he did it.) Salido went on to dethrone Lopez despite being past his physical prime, who was always flawed, but never toppled until then; combined with his win against Guerrero (which actually shouldn't be overturned considering a clean follow-up blood test), it speaks for his previously uncelebrated fundamental skills. Katsidis was visibly determined and was at a point in his career where he was more technically developed and a better man than the one that had lost previously. A similar description could be said for Diaz. Neither one had really been the same in the ring since, despite facing a smaller, considerably older man.

My point is, people's views on resumes on ESB are often so polar and superficial that people forget to look at other aspects of a resume which I've already gone through and over-indulged. If I could do it for most underrated/overlooked fighters as in-depth, I would, for the sake of boxing, and I try when I can. Thanks for discussing civilly, and I do hope you understand why I insist on certain points in the context of discussing JMM's resume specifically. It's not the resume one would expect from someone so capable, but he impressed by fighting the best of everyone he could get his hands on, and if you see the scorecards the way I do, never losing until fighting Floyd Mayweather at 144lbs at 36 years of age. Thanks for engaging. :good
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I understand where you're coming from, mi hermano. And it's all good. :good

I think we agree and come to the same conclusion albeit by different approaches: JMM is an ATG! While you come to that more through the argument of Resume (which for me is a weak and flawed way to approach it without having to overly embellish them to do so)... For me however, JMM's Greatness can never be founded on an arguably shaky Resume but on the more solid foundation of his overall skills and the science and aesthetics by which he plies his trade.

You always had and will have my respects. You are a breath of fresh air in the Forum in terms of class, boxing knowledge, and overall intelligence--qualities that are rare on ESB. Mad respects, mi amigo! :thumbsup

Zopilote · Dec 15, 2011

elchivito said: ↑

Ah, another thread on Jmm by *******, but you aren't going full ****** this time. I am proud of you, my former *****.

To begin with, you do know his losses to Norwood, John, and your beloved Pacman are disputed? Norwood was an undefeated southpaw champion seen as a real threat to Hamed or any other featherweight at the time. Difficult style to beat and aside from that he could punch. Both were were dropped in the fight and late in the fight where both were pretty even Marquez started to dissect Norwood and get the better of him.

Vs John that one was difficult to score, but while Jmm outboxed John most of the round John would have spurts where he landed cleanly on Jmm. Marquez was still the clear winner in that one. Home cooking bigtime.

Vs Pacman in the first fight Pac got a huge lead dropping Juan on his ass 3 times but Juan made one of the greatest comebacks ever by not only fighting back but outlanding Pacman. There was the judge that made the "error" but it was obvious a draw really was fair.

The 2nd fight was where I witnessed the "new" version of Pacman and I think was his best performance vs Juan. When he dropped Juan he actually countered the counterpuncher. Round 8 Marquez outlanded Pacman so badly it could of been a 10-8 round. Another close, but clear win for Marquez.

The 3rd one no knockdowns and surprisingly Marquez not Pacman landed the harder cleaner shots. How you explain that after Pacmans shots just dropped Mosley, Cotto, and broke Margos orbital bone? Not only did he land cleaner but he landed more while throwing less. Theres no excuse for letting a 38 yr old doing that to the p4p king.

And you still question Dinamitas greatness? Do you know by questioning his greatness your also questioning your idols? He couldnt ko Marquez much less beat him convincingly not surprisingly its only *******s that make up the sorriest excuses to question Juans greatness.
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And JMM dropped Norwood twice, but one of them wasnt ruled a KD, even tho it was legit.

Smokin' Joe · Dec 15, 2011

How many fights has Juan actually lost?

DQ'd in his first pro fight, I don't think we'll count that.

Norwood, definitely robbed.
Chris John, obvious hometown cooking.
Pacquiao 2, deserved at least another draw, arguably won it.
Mayweather, soundly beaten by a much bigger man. Mayweather was well over 150 on the night. But Juan took the fight knowing that might happen, has to accept that loss, and he does.
Pacquaio 3, unquestionably robbed.

In my eyes, Mayweather's his only legitimate loss.

Zopilote · Dec 15, 2011

Smokin' Joe said: ↑

How many fights has Juan actually lost?

DQ'd in his first pro fight, I don't think we'll count that.

Norwood, definitely robbed.
Chris John, obvious hometown cooking.
Pacquiao 2, deserved at least another draw, arguably won it.
Mayweather, soundly beaten by a much bigger man. Mayweather was well over 150 on the night. But Juan took the fight knowing that might happen, has to accept that loss, and he does.
Pacquaio 3, unquestionably robbed.

In my eyes, Mayweather's his only legitimate loss.
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^ This.

Spitfire7 · Dec 15, 2011

Smokin' Joe said: ↑

How many fights has Juan actually lost?

In my eyes, ....
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Have it checked. When done, meditate on the fact that the world at large and reality in general will never change and doesn't give a rat's azs what one obscure interwebz forumer sees. :good

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Juan Manuel Marquez

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Smokin' Joe ~ Dinamita Irlandés ~ banned

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Zopilote Dinamita Full Member

Smokin' Joe ~ Dinamita Irlandés ~ banned

Zopilote Dinamita Full Member

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Juan Manuel Marquez

saul_ir34 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

the brown bomber Active Member Full Member

Smokin' Joe ~ Dinamita Irlandés ~ banned

Spitfire7 Gadfly Full Member

Zopilote Dinamita Full Member

Smokin' Joe ~ Dinamita Irlandés ~ banned

Zopilote Dinamita Full Member

Spitfire7 Gadfly Full Member