I am actually reading his autobiography right now and he considers it to be the Jerry Quarry fight, but Norton does rate his 3rd Ali performance very high. He trained like a mad man for that fight, I still believe he moved much more sluggish than the Norton of old, but still I consider that the last we saw of old Kenny as after that robbery he never trained with the same intensity and started much slower afterward. His biggest difference from 72'-75' was his pace, in 1978 it took Kenny 7 rounds to get started vs Larry and took around 4/5 with Jimmy Young.
I would guess that Norton liked Ali more than he liked Holmes. Holmes made fun of Norton for being in the movie "Mandingo" and the two apparently didn't like each other. Shavers did much better against Ali than he did against Holmes, he fought Holmes for 23 rounds and only won ONE round, the round he knocked Holmes down, Shavers won maybe 1 minute out of almost 69 minutes of fighting. The rest of the time he was eating Holmes' jab and right hand. To me Norton and Shavers performed better against Ali and like most fighters they credit the one they beat or almost beat rather than the one who beat them. I think Ali showed that he could fight on the inside against Foreman. In that one Ali exploited GF on the inside, fighting close, making GF miss, pushing and pulling GF, taking advantage of his lack of a good base and lack of infighting ability. Ali had been fighting/sparring long enough that he could adapt according to his opponent, especially if the opponent was noticeably better at one range than at another. When I have scored Holmes - Norton I've always scored it about 10-5 for Holmes, I've never scored any of the Ali - Norton fights for Ali so I think Holmes did much better with Norton than Ali ever did. Of course scoring fights is not an exact science, different people see them different ways.
Just curious for your scoring, I scored it with Holmes taking 1-7 and 13, with Norton taking 8-12 with 14 and 15 (plausible Holmes round but I found Norton being more effective early on). Which 3 rounds did you swing to Larry?
Because Ali had about the same amount of fights as Holmes did when he was beating the likes of Frazier, Norton Lyle, Foreman. Compared to Holmes losing to the likes of Spinks x2, and struggling immensely vs Carl Williams. My point is you were saying Holmes did better late in his career, but when both fighters had similar amount of fights Ali was beating much more impressive opposition than Holmes did. Your also not taking into account that Ali had much stronger opposition than Holmes did, the last few years of Holmes's career he was choosing easier challengers like Marvis Frazier, Scott Frank, etc. If Holmes had to fight wars vs the likes of Norton x3, Frazier x3, Foreman, etc. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be fine and dandy in his 40s.
Ali-Norton ll Unofficial AP scorecard: 6-5 Norton Unofficial UPI scorecard: 9-2 Ali https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Ken_Norton_(2nd_meeting) Ali-Norton lll Unofficial AP scorecard: 9-6 Ali; unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-7 Norton. https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Ken_Norton_(3rd_meeting) We absolutely need to look at where fighters were in their career . Ali was 35 and had been in wars with Frazier, Foreman, and Norton when he faced Earnie. Ali's very next fight was the debacle against Leon Spinks. Larry was 29 and 30 respectively when he beat Shavers.
I don't remember the exact rounds and how I scored them, but 10-5 is about the average score when I score it. We scored it for the Fight of the Week on this board and I scored it wider for Holmes (turned the sound/Cosell off), but several others who scored it, had it close, though from memory, everybody scored it for Holmes. I want to say that I gave Holmes 9 of the first 10 rounds and 11 rounds overall but I'm not sure. I've found that when scoring fights my scoring can change from day to day so about 10-5 is my normal scoring for this fight, it can be a little closer or a little wider.
Ali was not the most faded version of himself against Norton in any of their bouts, and Norton was not the most faded version of himself against Holmes.
The Holmes fight took alot out of him. He always struggled with punchers. Norton also started boxing late at 20. So 35 for him isn't a regular 35. I didn't see that being an 8-7 fight at all. At least 10 rounds to Norton. Ali even got a card vs Spinks in their first fight so you can see the kind of favoritism he was getting back then
How does Ali hitting harder than Holmes, invalidate Ali having a harder jab? They're not mutually exclusive. Will respond to the rest of your posts later, as it will require a bit of my time.
I agree. I had the fight coming down to the last round which Norton gave away by his own admission (though he was adamant, he didn't need the last round to win the fight). I don't think it was the robbery everyone makes it out to be.
Here's my scoring for Holmes vs Norton and Ali vs Norton 2, i'll give you both of my scorecards for Holmes vs Norton because i watched it twice once in 60 FPS. Larry Holmes vs Ken Norton 1 Holmes 2 Holmes 3 Holmes 4 Holmes 5 Holmes 6 Holmes 7 Norton 8 Norton 9 Holmes 10 Norton 11 Norton 12 Norton 13 Holmes 14 Norton 15 Norton 143-142 Holmes 1 Holmes 2 Holmes 3 Holmes 4 Holmes 5 Holmes 6 Holmes 7 Holmes 8 Norton 9 Norton 10 Norton 11 Norton 12 Norton 13 Holmes 10-8 14 Norton 15 Norton 143-141 Holmes Ken Norton vs Muhammad Ali 2 1 Ali 2 Ali 3 Ali 4 Ali 5 Norton 6 Ali 7 Norton 8 Norton 9 Ali 10 Norton 11 Norton 12 Ali 115-113 Ali
No he didn't. Frazier was his 32 fight. Norton was 43 and Norton 2 was 44. The 2nd Joe Fraizer and George Foreman fights were around the same amount of fights in as Larry Holmes vs Spinks and Williams. Ali turned pro at 18 and Larry Holmes turned pro at 23. Credit to Ali for that and I think young Ali 20-25 was certainly better than Holmes at that age. Holmes was a late bloomer and from 30-35 was better than Ali at that age.. Your point about the wars Ali had is warranted.
Joe and Muhammad threw about 700 punches at each other and landed about 400 of them in Manila. I encourage people to compare that activity to other fights. Looking at Ali's subsequent performances through those lens it's amazing he accomplished as much as he did including the rubber match with Kenny.
I wasn't on about the 1st Frazier fight i was strictly on about the 2nd and 3rd fights, Ali had 45 fights vs Frazier the 2nd time, 50 fights the 3rd fight. And as for 3rd Norton fight and Foreman fights he had 54 fights and 46 fights. Again this is what i mean Ali was still beating the best Heavyweights in the world, compared to Holmes with the same amount of fights getting gift decision vs Carl Williams and losing to Michael Spinks. Ali despite being past his peak was still winning to challenge himself vs the best and was actually winning. Where as Holmes wasn't challenging himself against the best when he was past his peak. So your argument about Holmes's style being more effective late on is not quite as clear cut as you think. The opposition they were fighting has to be taken into consideration, Holmes in 1985 with similar amount of fights Ali had at that time is not beating Frazier, Norton, Foreman. And as i said if Holmes was fighting Ali's opposition he would have alot more wear and tear aswell.