Oh, now i feel really bad for helping you make your great point that ...... Lennox Lewis never beat Larry Holmes or Muhammad Ali. Well damn; you've opened my eyes. I used to see this one pretty much 50/50, but now that i discovered Lewis never beat a prime Ali/Holmes, his odds quite simply just sink below sea level. Oh, and thanks for pointing out that Lewis didn't get up when he was caught by a bomb. He sure remained long on the canvas when Tua, Klitschko, Bruno, Mason, Morrison, Ruddock, Tyson, Grant, Briggs, Holyfield, Tucker and Mercer landed a bomb. Oh well. Doesn't really matter. Webster's dictionary lists "Ken Norton" when you look up "glass chin" and he was just fine when he fought a peak version of Holmes. Ali won most of his fights during his second career on pure heart, durability, guts and popularity. Certainly the Lyle, Frazier III and Shavers fights that you describe fit that bill. Pre-exile Ali would still be troubled technically by Norton, but his vastly higher hand- and foot speed would see him to a comfortable decision, more easily than he did in their second fight. By the way, please answer this question. Before Norton fought Ali, how many lighting fast boxers with a killer jab, exceptional stamina, great overall skills and a tremendous chin and heart had Norton defeated? Answer, none. In fact, he beat up on complete tomato cans and the one time he stepped up, he lost by knockout to a relatively mediocre fighter, though he did avenge it. By your logic, he doesn't have a chance in hell, yet he pulled it off. Twice. Well, thanks for laying it out to me and educating me on Norton's career. Let's see how much Norton improved from 75-78 and how it showed. He fought Holmes to a very close decision loss. Okay, great accomplishment. Then next he fights Shavers and gets dusted in a single round. Mmm, well tough luck, he improved a lot so he'll come back. But then in his next battle, he fights LeDoux to a draw while being floored twice by said journeyman. After that he wins a split decision over Cobb, and the next puncher he faced knocks him out in a single round again. Quite simply put, his record post-Holmes is horrible. Does that mean he was a corpse against Holmes? Of course not, but let's not pretend he was at his peak, either. As for no one at that time saying that he lost a step, that says nothing. No one said Liston lost a step before he fought Ali either, nor did they when Hagler was about to face Leonard, etc etc. Yes, i know that Holmes broke his poor little finger nail, would've knocked out Tyson if his hand didn't get stuck behind the rope, etc etc. We know the man's excuses. :good And i'm not writing it off as Holmes vs an "old man", but fact remains that Norton was at the end of his career and performed horribly afterwards. Another fact is that Holmes was at his peak and had plenty of trouble with him, as well as that it shows that even if you believe Lewis had a glass jaw, it matters **** all. But yeah, if you believe Holmes would easily beat Lewis (who according to you is not a great fighter) because he barely beat a semi-retired Norton while declining to give a well-earned rematch, then more power to you.
CP you are easily frustrated and a last word freak to boot ... your comments are so reaching it is silly ... your photo should be of a guy playing Chutes and Ladders, not chess ... anyone with something interesting to say ? :hey
HeGrant, You are a boxing historian and have alot of knowledge, but to come in here as a newbie and start calling highly respected and well liked posters(like CP) names is very unclassy for a man of your stature, I like you you have done alot for cyberboxing, but dont try to come over here and take over ESB. just chill out, have fun, and talk some good boxing, no need to get personel over such things. its all just meaningless opinions here in good fun. Thanx bud.
As for the thread........... one thing thats interesting A 42 year old Larry Holmes did better against common opponents than a 26 year old lennox lewis. 42 year old larry holmes W 12 wide decision over Ray Mercer 29 year old lennox lewis W 10 controversial close decision over ray mercer Oliver Mccall close decision over 44 year old holmes Oliver Mccall TKO 2 26 year old Lennox Lewis
Agreed but that is how Frank almost always lost to the top guys, a big punch late when his stamina was running low ...
agreed on that point, he had bonecrusher all but beaten going into the last round. Bonecrusher in between 9th and 10th round told trainer emile griffith "Griff, let me go out and do it my way" and he went out and knocked out bruno.
SQ: I do believe we can voice opinion and disagreement without personalized attacks or obnoxious comments. I do not like the childish behavior I see here from a small handful of guys. However, I have as much right to be here as anyone and longevity does not give one a pass from decency. When my thoughts are responded to with attacks I will respond if I feel motivated. Most often I will ignore them all together. I will try my best to be respectful to those who act and respond in kind. I feel every one that contributes here should do the same. It would improve the reputation of the board as a whole and attract even more high end posters than it currently does. I am enjoying myself for the most part but will say as someone who has played the field for years that this board is known for having a lot of childish sh-t go on and it turns many high end users away. That is a shame as a board is only as good and interesting as it's posters.
Holmes and Ali NEVER fought a Big guy with the skill or Punching power of Lennox Lewis....Ali and Holmes had there strengths and weaknesses and so did Lewis but Lewis is an especialy hard opponent for them...I see the Ali fight as a tough pick and possible close decision Prime to Prime but I see Holmes getting flattened by Lewis...and we know they both had Jabs that was there primary weapon but Lewis had a good arsenal as well and size. Neither Ali or Holmes had frightfull power and I do not see that being a threat to Lewis, who took solid shots from Vitali, Evander,Mercer,Bruno,Briggs and Tyson
Holmes took solid shots from Williams, Shavers, Norton, Cooney, Weaver, Witherspoon, Smith, Mercer, Tyson (although he was dropped and stopped in the 4th), Holyfield, McCall, and Spinks if you count him as a big HW puncher. Chin isn't a problem for Larry at all, his was iron, but people seem to ignore that and say he will get dropped, even though he withstood some huge shots and flurries, and it was only the shots that would drop almost anyone that would put him down. Larry and Ali didn't have the power to drop Lennox with one shot, but they did have the power to wear him down and make him weary. I wouldn't put it past them to stagger or drop Lennox late in the fight, after the 12th round with a hard flurry. IMO Larry wins the jabbing and outside-midrange battles. Lewis would take the inside battles but not with ease.
Yeah, you need help. You just get totally owned by a very well thought out post and you come back with this utter tripe. :hi:
John again proving my point ..childish jibber jabber ..... I disagree with Chris and his methods but at least he does not hide behind someone which is your m.o. :hi: