Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by sas6789, Sep 25, 2017.
Holmes wins in what starts out as a master class as Vitali warms up but turns into a war.
This is overall a very reasonable argument. Two caveats. The trivial one, I do not agree that Holmes was a better boxer than Ali-although he had superior formal technique, Ali made things work really well with unconventional tactics, & when peak made it work for him due to his physical gifts.
Much more importantly, it seems disengenuous-or uninformed-to just report that the Holmes vs. Cooney fight was close on the cards.
That was true for 2 of the 3 judges, but that was a farce.
Especially since Cooney had three (3) points taken away for low blows, it should not have been close.
That most of the judges would have had Cooney WINNING before the stoppage without the deductions was a joke.
I remember the era & circumstances, & folks should know how massive racism was involved before & apparently during the fight. I have selected various text to illustrate this. It leaves out how tons of white celebrities who otherwise were not boxing fans supported Cooney, & President reagan was ready to call the dressing room of...Only Cooney if he had won!
I cut & paste from a couple sources:
Also, since there had not been a white World Heavyweight Champion in twenty-two years, King put a lot of emphasis on race. “This is a white and black fight,” King said. “Anyway you look at it, you cannot change that. Gerry Cooney: Irish, white, Catholic.” Cooney’s managers, Mike Jones and Dennis Rappaport (known in the media as the Whacko Twins) fanned the flames, too. “I do not respect Larry Holmes as a human being,” Rappaport said. “I don’t think he’s carried the championship with dignity.” They pushed Cooney, with little subtlety, as white America’s champion. “He’s not the white man, he’s the right man,” Rappaport liked to say.
Holmes began receiving death threats in the run-up to the fight and his property was vandalized. Also, the Ku Klux Klan staged rallies in support of Cooney. On the night of the fight, snipers were put on rooftops overlooking the outdoor ring.
At the end of the fight, the only real shocker was the announcement of the scoring. After twelve rounds, two of the three judges, Dave Moretti (who the Holmes camp tried to have replaced before the fight) and Duane Ford, had Holmes ahead by only two points, 113-111. Had the referee not deducted three points from the challenger, Ford and Moretti would have had Cooney ahead on points going into the thirteenth round. The third judge, Jerry Roth (who was substituted the day of the fight for Herb Santos due to objections from the Holmes camp), had Holmes ahead 115-109, a far more reasonable reflection of the events in the ring. "I've seen so much bad scoring out here I knew what I had to do," said Holmes. "I was prepared for anything."
The most racially charged fight in history sees WBC Heavyweight Champion Larry Holmes defend his title against "The Great White Hope" Gerry Cooney in a highly anticipated affair. Feeling slighted by the marketing campaign and the fact that the ring announcer introduces him before his challenger, Holmes drops Cooney in the second round. Cooney survives the early knockdown and makes a fight of it but loses two points in the ninth round and another one in the eleventh for low blows. Holmes staggers a bloodied Cooney in the thirteenth round, prompting the challenger to grab the ropes for support, which Referee Mills Lane rules a knockdown. Though Cooney wants to continue, his corner throws in the towel to save him from further punishment.
Thanks for listening folks. I give you one more illustration of *continuing* racism.
The scorcards tend to be good on this website.
But you have some who also had Holmes only barely ahead WITH the low blow deductions.
You even have a guy with Cooney a couple points ahead by 3 points, straight up!
I ask you, even before you might read the racist arguments below the scorecards, how could this not be Pure Racist Bias & likely Hate...
And do not think that things are completely different now than in the early 1980's.
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So while Holmes had some flaws of temperement-& many impressive things about him personally-we can cut him some slack if he was sometimes cranky!
But he & Cooney are good friends who work together to do charity events.
Holmes decision for me is the most likely result. Can't see a good case for Vitali. Wlad would be a more dangerous match with his big power and gun barrel straight right hand. He'd still be an underdog tho.
Holmes can win on points if he uses good movement. There's no way he knocks out Vitali
Stoppage on cuts is possible. Remember TKO6 ? Not saying i think that would happen but just saying
Nope, not in a million years.
More likely on points.
Cooney ain't no Vitali
True, but Lewis is a bit taller
True, but Lewis cut Vitali with the back part of his glove. And Lewis hit way harder than Holmes.
Holmes for me is among the top 5 greatest HWs in terms of achievements, but I can only see a win on points for him, never a KO
Agree. The true test of seeing whether a guy is a Holmes fanboy is whether they believe ol Larry could knock Vitali out or not.
It's fairly obvious that Holmes' strength was as a boxer, not some monster slugger. Fanboys typically see only what their own 'guy' can do to the other and ignore what the other guy could do to their hero. Vitali has never struck me as the most organized fighter and the way he holds his hands is disturbing. His lean back defence is against the accepted conventions of boxing. People could point out a ton of flaws on him and they'd be right. And yet the dude has been metronomically consisent, routinely smashing guys to bits while taking little punishment himself.
On paper Holmes looks much better. And yet when looking at the stats, Vitali is way ahead.
If we're honest when you get to the highest levels, there are few blowouts and I wouldn't expect to see one here either.
He didn't cut Vitali with the back of his glove, the punch just ended up being a glancing blow, but even if it did it doesn't matter because Vitali ended up with 4 different cuts, not just one. It's safe to say Vitali's skin couldn't handle the power of Lewis.
So i won't rule out a cut stoppage against Holmes because Holmes jab was like a whip and he even gave Cooney a cut above his eye but i dont think it would happen because Holmes was wasn't a big puncher at all
But that is what you don't get, it's not Lewis's power that caused the cut, it's the angle he landed as you said and the part of the glove he hit Vitali with. It was a one time only.
Plus the jab comes in straight, not from the side, like the hook, so it's very unlikely to cut Vitali.
The poll results are hilarious, voters polling more in hope than in expectation.
Holmes has next to no shot in reality. Vitali Klitschko would toy with him and he'd enjoy it.
But he gave Vitali 4 different cuts. Only one of those cuts was caused by an odd angle punch.
Only one of those cuts was relevant.