Last time: Holyfield vs ali

'60s Ali beats him absolutely up.

Pre-Manila '70s Ali takes him probably by a decision.

Over the hill Ali ... I like Evander.

 

I feel both these guys had such long and varied careers it depends which version we pick? My first thought is Ali is simply too mobile, but I feel peak Holyfield vs late 70s Ali and it is a bit more of a toss up. Evander could be brutal if Ali is presenting a target and not moving off the ropes.

 

I agree that post Manila Ali more than likely loses, if Holmes did it prime Holyfield certainly can

early 70's Ali bangs with him a lot more but still takes it

 

Utter fantasy. Ali ain’t good enough to beat up Holyfield. Decision him yes. But hurting him and beating him bad... No chance. Skillset and power just isn’t there.

 

Holyfield had lots of trouble with Holmes.

 

I guess we can agree to disagree because I think Ali was the GOAT and I don't have Holyfield in my top 10.

 

I don’t think rankings are going to give Ali anywhere near enough skill or power to ‘beat up’ Evander Holyfield. I would argue that p4p Holyfield was clearly a better fighter anyway, but it’s not relevant here is it.

 

Does he in the 60s? He was a little faster probably, a lot less intelligent though and had no inside game to speak of and relied heavily on his legs to get him out danger - If Chuvalo and Ernie Terrell can get in, Holyfield can.

 

You think he doesn’t cut the ring as well as Ernie Terrell? I disagree but that’s your opinion chap.

 

I’m a ginormous holyfield fan and have watched his whole career but this was an issue of his. Its because he bounces up and down naturally. It’s hard to move forward quickly when you’re bouncing on your toes. You can see it against Ocasio and Holmes big time even against Lewis as well. Benton would have to get Holyfield to abandon his natural rhythm for me. I don’t think Norton and Holyfield are similar per se, but if Holyfield could feasibly implement a consistent crossguard and jab to the chest like Kenny did, I think Holyfield could do well. Stop Ali scoring with that quick right hand and counter of it as Holyfield could do. I think Holyfield was a fantastic all rounder so it’s not out the question he could alter his style at all.

 

Holyfield at best gives Ali maybe 70% the trouble Frazier did, Holyfield was good on the inside but was certainly no Bonavena let alone Frazier, even early 70's Ali would be able to land lead rights at will, the question is if Holyfield can answer back with anything that actually hurts Ali, and the answer is no, unless we're going to start thinking Holyfield was as accurate and relentless as Frazier or had power like Foreman, which he wasn't and didn't

Holyfield's stamina also absolutely sucks if we're talking going 15 with Ali, Holyfield would probably have had a heart attack in Manila

 

Holyfield didn't fight a ton of movers like Tyson did on his way up because Tyson put an end to the trend of Ali imitators that filled the division.

As you said, he cut off old holmes. I would also called Ossie Ocasio a mover if not a runner and Holy knocked him out. I also believe that prime Holyfield knocks out John Ruiz instead of the dreadful trilogy they had. I also think prime holy outworks Byrd, though I like Chris Byrd and think he would have made it close. But I don't think Holyfield would have trouble getting to Byrd.

I would not go so far as to say Holyfield had better footwork overall than Ali, but prime Holyfield was very very fleet footed is all I'm saying and he was an offensive juggernaut.

 

So peak Holy and the Ali that lost to 7 fight novice Leon Spinks is a toss up? Blimey. Evander doesn't get a lot of change out of you, does he, Blofeld?

Peak for peak, Ali wins. Take all their parts and rate them out of 10 so, say, Jab, hook, cross, body work, chin, power, footwork, IQ, stamina, inside game and tot up the totals. I bet there would be thismuch in it. But prime Ali's footwork and jab were sooooo good they negated his opponent's advantages in other areas of the game. It's no good having a better uppercut or inside game if your opponent is flying round out of reach, jabbing your head off.

But once Ali's footwork ceased being otherworldly ie the 70s, it is a different fight and Holyfield's superiority in other facets of the game come into play. 70s Ali never really proved his superiority over Ken Norton and imo Evander was better than Ken and could also provide a stylistic nightmare for Ali. He also had a sneaky and explosive left hook so he might really hurt Ali at some point. And he's not going to get drawn into brawling, which could be his undoing, because Ali wouldn't have initiated that brawl. If Evander keeps calm and sticks to his game plan, that of the Douglas fight, this could be a horrible night for Ali.

Other points to consider. Holyfield was always in shape, notwithstanding PED use, whereas 70s Ali could get fat and have to coast a lot in fights to conserve stamina. Peak Holyfield had good stamina.

So in short, I feel Ali could hit heights that Holy couldn't when both were at their best, in Ali's case the mid sixties. But, over time, Ali became a different fighter. Not necessarily worse, but the advantages he gained in the 70s such as extra strength, durability, guile, added power served him well against other opponents but would have been less effective vs Holy. Evander would have been quite happy for Ali to have had these extra qualities if they came at the expense of the speed and movement of the 60s that would have troubled him far more. Peak Holy is having some success in a series of fights with 70s Ali imo.

 

Hmm? it's hard to envision a young strong Holyfield that went 12 rounds each with two dinosaurs in Foreman and Holmes doing anything but bleed and swell against a prime Ali. Heck the Zaire version of Ali beats him up. He's simply not on Ali's level.

 

Are we talking about the Ali that was nearly murdered by one shot from Henry Cooper or is that some other guy? Or the one who got sent to hospital by "Canadian heavyweight champion" George Chuvalo? Or the Ali who spent nearly 15 rounds dithering around with walking tomato and ultra-fringe contender Chuck Wepner, helplessly getting rabbit-punched the entire time, in one of the worst looking heavyweight title fights in human history? A fight with a man so bad his nickname is about a defect? A fight so bad it made Redd Foxx and James Brown quiet? Hard to see Ali not getting the crap punched out of him by Holyfield, frankly. Ali's level is about the level you'd expect when he nearly died against a half-blind, one-armed midget champion and his best win is against a champion who used to get dehydrated by his manager because they're both too stupid to understand water is good.