Nat was good overall for boxing, but as a boxing historian he was crap. I know what I'm talking, as I'm verifying records and compiling scrap-books of next-day reports for many famous 1890-1910 fighters.
After the description of the bout Senya quoted in post #83, the article concludes which information which seems bland, but I think contains some key information, as I will explain: "After the bout was over Manager Clark Bell announced that if he could secure the theater for a return engagement for Saturday night next he would match Fitzsimmons against Munroe, and agree to forfeit $500 if "Lanky Bob" could not dispose of the miner in four rounds. "The concluding number on the programme was the go between Fitzsimmons and Jeffries. It was a sparring affair of four rounds of a minute and a half each, and while it showed the cleverness of the two big fellows to a degree, it was disappointing to those who expected to see something of the nature of a championship battle. Those who understood, however, knew that the championship battles could not be fought every night on a tour and were well pleased with the sport furnished by the heavyweights. "Duncan McDonald acted as referee of all the events except that between Jeffries and Fitzsimmons. "Jack" McLaughlin was official timekeeper for all the bouts expt that of the big fellows. Manager Clark Ball was referee and timekeeper in the last event. Jeffries and Fitzsimmons will appear in Anaconda tomorrow night." 1. Note the name Clark Ball--more about him to come 2. As they were talking about a fight between Fitz and Munroe the next week, I must assume Munroe did not sustain a bad physical beating. 3. Jeff and Fitz sparred after the Jeff-Munroe fight.
It's very sad actually. Over a century has passed and if you look at boxrec records of fighters like Jack McAuliffe, Young Griffo, George Dixon, Kid McCoy, etc etc, you will see a lot of bouts with no venue name, no scheduled rounds, no comments, a lot of these entries were published in record books a century ago and were never verified by anyone.
Who was Manager Clark Ball? Little seems to be know about him, except that Jeff referred to him as Fitz's brother-in-law in his autobiography. In his biog of Fitz. THE FIGHTING BLACKSMITH, Gilbert Odd speculates that Ball was the brother of Fitz's wife or the husband of one of his obscure sisters. Why is Ball important? He was the chief second for Fitz when he fought Jeffries in 1902 and apparently handled Fitz's negotiations for that fight. He also was an important man on this tour and perhaps in the aftermath of this fight. These are excerpts from THE FIGHTING BLACKSMITH on Ball's role in the Munroe fight: "No doubt with 'Big Jeff's' full approval, Clark Ball was appointed agent for the enterprise. His job was to go in advance to the cities and towns it was planned to visit, and there find a theatre manager prepared to lease his premises and provide the necessary publicity. Whereever possible, it was Ball's job to stir up interest among all the available young men and tempt them to come forward and meet either Bob or Jim in contests of four rounds, those who managed to stay the distance being promised $250." After a description of the Munroe fight which includes no mention of Munroe being down but says that Jeff on one occasion "slipped to his knees after taking a hard rap on the chin," Odd has these very revealing paragraphs: "As Jeffries and Fitzsimmons continued their tour through the mining towns, no one else was allowed to stay into the fourth round. At Bozeman in Montana, Bob finished off Mike Ranke, weighing 190 pounds, in fifteen seconds, and continued to show his partner the easy way to earn a living. When they returned to Butte to make train connections, however, they discovered that Munroe was being hailed as the conqueror of the heavyweight champion and newspapers were urging that he should be given a chance at the title." And then this very interesting paragraph: "They also found that Clark Ball had stayed on in Butte instead of doing his job and proceeding them. It was he who was engineering the press stories, since he regarded Munroe as a 'find', even taking him under his management with the promise that he would be brought along as a championship contender. Both Jeff and Fitz regarded this state of affairs as the double-cross of all double-crosses, seeing that Ball was in their pay, and Bob, in particular, was enraged." 1. Note that "BALL WAS IN THEIR PAY," meaning Jeff, and probably Jeff's manager, Billy Delaney, as well as Fitz. In other words, the fellow who was puffing Munroe up was working for Jeffries! Doesn't this smell just a bit. 2. In late 1902, the rising young contenders, Denver Ed Martin, Sam McVea, and notably Jack Johnson, were all black. It is very interesting to me that this obscure exhibition, with all kinds of conflicting newspaper reports, effectively puffed up Jack Munroe as a contender and sidetracked the formidable Jack Johnson. Jeffries eventually defended against Munroe in response to the "demand" stirred up by this exhibition. 3. Publicly, of course, there was a bitter feud with Jeff in a rage at Munroe and Ball, but I sure do wonder.
Mendoza--Do you have the direct quote in which Jeffries denies being knocked down? Did he deny being off his feet at all? Could you post those quotes? I would be interested in the exact wording.
1902-12-24 The Anaconda Standard (page 1) JEFFRIES DENIES THAT HE WAS GOING ------ Special Dispatch to the Standard. Helena, Dec. 23.--James J. Jeffries made the following statement here to-night relative to his celebrated four-round bout with Jack Munroe at Butte Saturday: "In the first place, I want to say that the associated press report sent out from Butte that Munroe had me going and that I was down on one knee is absolutely false. The situation was just this: "The first preliminary had lasted less than two rounds. In the second preliminary Fitzsimmons landed his man in the first round. The final bout between Fitzsimmons and myself consumes about five minutes. Consequently I determined upon entering the ring for the contest with Munroe to spread it out a little and give the people their money's worth. "This was against both Fitzsimmons' and my manager's advice, but I did not want to let the people go with less than 10 minutes actual fighting for the whole evening, as many of them had paid as much as $5 for a seat. "All I can say for Munroe is that he displayed good generalship in going down for the count at least 12 times during the four rounds. That was all that saved him. I would have put him to sleep in the next round as sure as I stand here. "That Munroe realizes this as well as I do is only too plainly evidenced by the fact that he failed to show up here to-night, where an offer of $1,000 awaited him to go four rounds with me and be on his feet at the end of that time." ...
Thanks for printing this, Senya. Jeff clearly is denying he was down at this point in time. I myself, though, don't consider him any more reliable than I consider Munroe claiming he knocked him down reliable. Off the quotes, there seems to be no doubt that the AP reported him going down. This still begs the issue of why the AP was wrong. Senya--do you have the AP report? Could you post the fullest one you have?
OLD FOGEY, Could a man deny a knockdown if 1,000+ people saw it. Think about it, if the heavyweight champion went down, its a memorable moment. I don't think Jeffries is wrong here. If he was, those who saw the match would mock him. Jeffries was pretty much a stand up guy. The primary sources say Jeffries was not knocked down. I did enjoy the part where Fitz iced his man in 15 seconds!
That is a good point. However, in his autobiog Jack Dempsey said he was knocked down four times by Fireman Jim Flynn and that his brother stopped the bout by throwing in the towel when he was still getting up and able to continue. The AP story said Dempsey went down first punch of the fight and was counted out, and was on the floor for at least twenty seconds. There must have been many people still around who had seen the Dempsey-Flynn fight. Why did he print that? One possibility is that Dempsy really thought his version was the truth. A second possibility is that it really is the truth and that the wire service report is wrong. 1. Jeffries might not have remembered going down because he was in fact hurt or maybe momentarily "out". 2. Jeff may not have thought he went to his knee but he in fact did. He was fighting pretty fast and furious. Jeffries as a stand up guy--I don't know. He initially admitted Johnson was the better man but later claimed he had been poisoned. He claimed Fitz loaded his gloves against him in a fight in which Jeff was sliced to ribbons. Within months he and Fitz were in a business partnership and the best of friends. Possible, but it makes you wonder. As the facts of these ancient fights are very difficult to pin down, it is problemmatical how much of a stand up guy Jeff was or was not. He was a tough man who cleaned out the heavyweight division of his day, at least until the rise of Johnson, but few fighters have put out as many excuses for subpar performances.
Jeffries also denied that Jack Finnegan floored him and broke his jaw,though it was common knowledge.
1902-12-21 Colorado Springs Gazette (page 15) CHAMPION JIM ALMOST KNOCKED OUT BY AMATEUR ------ (By Associated Press Exclusively to Gazette in Colorado Springs.) Butte, Mont., Dec. 20.--Champion, James J. Jeffries, tonight lost a decision in a four-round contest with Jack Munroe, after four rounds of the fiercest fighting Butte has seen for some time. At one time the champion went to his knees and a knockout looked possible. Jeffries and his manager had posted a forfeit of $250 for any one to stand against Jeffries for four rounds and Munroe accepted the challenge. At the end of the fourth round Munroe was still ready to fight. Munroe is amateur champion of the Pacific coast. Fitzsimmons has posted a forfeit of $500 to put Munroe out in four rounds. When the decision was announced the large audience rose in their seats and cheered for Munroe. The champion did his best to deliver a knockout blow and was disappointed over his failure to put Munroe out. The latter repeatedly sent his straight left to the champion's face and blocked many vicious uppercuts. The Butte man displayed unexpected cleverness and although he went down several times, it was more through Jeffries' great weight than the punishment inflicted. In the mix-ups Jeffries did not overlook an opportunity to rough it, but before the third round was reached the smile had disappeared from his face and he went in with a determination to end the bout. Each time Munroe went to his knees he took the count and met all of the big fellow's rushes. A little blood was spilled from Munroe's nose, while Jeffries was puffing freely. Munroe is a miner and has liver here two years.
Thank you Senya. This is a pretty strong report to claim it is nothing and this reporter also refers to Munroe going down several times, so it is not easy to say he is playing favorites. As a matter of fact, he is the first so far to refer to Munroe bleeding from the nose. It certainly has the "feel" of a ringside report.
Except that it'd be not just the wire report, but also the Salt Lake Tribune, Salt Lake Telegram, Deseret Evening News (all reports by different authors, in three Salt Lake City newspapers) and Pueblo Chieftan (Pueblo, CO) newspapers all reporting next day that Dempsey was knocked out at once, no multiple knockdowns occured in the fight.