I didn't see much smack talk mate except from the guy who made the daft "jouneyman" comment. Although I've been eating my tea so may have missed the odd post..... I largely agree on the size issue, a lot of good pre-Liston heavweights would have struggled with the bigger post Liston heavyweights purely on size but that doesn't mean I have to rank Louis below Lewis.
Braddock was the World HW champion. He'd beaten Baer (who'd clowned during the fight admittedly) who had beat Carnera and Shmeling (all fighters that Louis also beat, he went on to beat Schmeling after Braddock) and I'm well aware that after Tunney gave up the title it was hard to establish a lineage, what with Sharkey and Carneras controversial matchup as well. But Louis overcame this by beating everyone. Louis fought fighters from Germany, Spain, Argentina and Wales. He was a WORLD CHAMPION. And funny how some of the countries you mentioned have been producing quality fighters in the lower weights (Brazil for example) and yet the bigger blokes haven't discovered it yet atsch I agree that there are those who underrate Lennox, but not for the reasons you do. You are way off base claiming boxing has evolved, how many fighters do 15 rounds with 4/6oz gloves nowadays? And who has improved on Louis' punching technique in the last 75 years or so? I'm not getting into this big time now, I've done it to depth. But Black, I disagree with you big time on quite a few points you've made :good
Max manager did...this is how he beat Louis, Max watch Joe Louis fight by winding the tape backwards thats how he noticed Louis dropped his hand after throwing a jab...this resulted in Max allowing Joe to throw his left jab out and then he countered with a right hand. NOW....if you think about what was available then compared to today? Then that you thick, muscular nigerian kid who wants to be heavyweight champ can now go and watch Joe Louis or Holmes or Foreman (i wouldnt watch him for skills) or Ali... Think about the internet boom of the 1990s, think about how television can reach world wide audience. The fall of the Soviet Union, has produced many fine fighters of the last 15 years. Wait untill Cuba regime changed happens, its a hot bed, a boxing culture groomed to succeed, since the boom of information we have had Ike madman Ibeauchi and Sam cant box peter come along, look at the british heavyweights....wait untill china starts to emerge..
Yes, and Louis made the adjustment and learned from it. You'd think that with the advent of the internet, someone would've watched Wlad losing to Sanders, Purrity and Brewster and figured out a way to beat him in the last few years. Or figured out a way to pressurise the awkward, but ageing Vitali? Like, some big Nigerian kid for instance? ;-) This content is protected And with the new conditioning techniques of course :deal This content is protected I agree that ease of technology has made it easier to study your opponent/build gameplans. But it is also true that the fighter of yesteryear had to have a more versatile, formidable style, and that to run the gaunlet in those days really was to prove yourself as the best. we didn't get Savon or Stevenson, but we got Carlos Gomez, Gonzalez and Solid. How much is going to change, really?
The rankings of fighters is silly, in the first place...its best to group them. 1890 to 1956 is fits in nicely as the first phase of boxing. There are articles about Joe Louis not being able to lace John L Sullivan boots, il be the same about our heavyweights of today. We will have a 300 pound heavyweight that moves quicker than a prime ali, is more skilled than an attacking mike tyson, has more raw punching power than foreman...and yet il be saying 'son that beast coudlnt compare to the heavyweights of the past' Resumes, are subjective.......who is to say that if Lennox Lewis didnt fight exactly the same opponents Joe Louis fought..he would have never lost. Lennox lost twice, in a 14 year carrer, the two men he lost to were big big punchers, averages boxers who were physically very strong...both 6'2 and weighed 235 to 240. He lost because he thought he could beat them easily. Im sure he would have done the same to Shavers who was easy to outbox yet had a huge right hand..
I can see the sense in grouping the eras esp. with heavyweights, where the division has changed so much over the years, but for a bit of fun theres no harm in ignoring the H2H side of things and try to rank All-Time based on achievements and relative quality of opposition.
Louis footwork was poor though, not in the sense he worked the ring in a bad way but he did really slowlyyyyyyy really slowlllllllly. AND he still dropped the left jab after he threw...Walcott was better technically.
In terms of his punching technique, his feet served him well, he was never far from planting his feet and put everything in his punches. Arguello was the same, but didn't stop them beating lots of quality fighters. Okay, he was never great off the back foot, but at mid-range and on the inside Louis knew exactly where to put his feet to maximise the effect of his blows. Okay, he was fairly plodding, but it was hardly detrimental to his style. Walcott had some of the best feet in HW history. Didn't stop a past prime Louis, second time round, smashing him.
Although I can see the heavyweights continuing to get bigger I do think thats going to put a constraint on the type of heavyweights we'll see. No 300lb combination punchers Tysons or movers like Ali IMHO.
Out of all the combat sports likely to take the big athletes away from basketball or the NFL, it's MMA IMO. Grappling suits big monsters better. The HW division now would be better if Solid had got in better shape/beaten Vitali regardless and Haye could beat Wlad (not gonna' happen IMO) then you could have Adamek, Haye, Povetkin (if he gets on his bike a bit) Solis and possibly Lebedev duking it out. The big ponderous guys are not as formidable as fairly big and sharper guys like Bowe, Holmes, and Lennox (all 6'4-6'5 if I'm not mistaken who I wouldn;t see Wlad faring well against any of 'em. Haye is, at his best what, 210? Not a massive difference from the 205, and superior in every way, Frazier really is it?
Tyson fought Ruddock after his stint in jail... but I get your gist, boxing math is a nonsense. Tyson on his best day beats Lewis on his best day IMO. Has no relevance on where they rank though.