Liam Smith is a domestic level fighter, that was a complete travesty!

Sometimes folks act all shocked and baffled by incidents in boxing which are not uncommon or unheard of.

Sounds lame but doesn't sound like anything we haven't seen time and time again.

 

Liam Smith is not a world rated fighter, he is a bum.............

 

I'm afraid you've misinterpreted my words and refuted statements I did not make.

Firstly, I said that Williams was "ended" by a headbutt, not that the cut was caused by a headbutt. Williams may well have been cut before; but from his own comments plus the visible reaction to the headbutt, it was clear that the headbutt was a very significant factor that turned the cut into a fight-ender.

And I didn't say Williams was well-up on the cards, I said that he deserved to be well-up on the cards. Basically all of us here had Williams wide at that point, if you seriously think that it was only 1 point, I really don't know what to say. The 2nd round was close, but it should have been a Williams round, for example.

Regardless, there was a miscarriage of justice, as the headbutt was a significant factor the fight should have either been a No Contest or gone to the scorecards as a TD, e.g. WBC rules: If there is an injury caused by a legal punch and the bout can continue, and is later stopped after the start of the fifth round due to an accidental injury, it will be a technical decision as per the scorecards.

As to who would have won if it wasn't for the headbutt: Smith was coming on strong, perhaps he would have got to Williams in the last three rounds, but we really don't know. Williams may have caught a second wind, and don't forget that Smith had a vey bad cut which threatened to end the fight as well.

 

Agreed, it happens far too often though ...

 

Smith's offensive smirk is Word class.

 

Haven't seen it but well spotted if you are correct. If the cut was caused as you say then it should be a no contest decision I believe. A protrusion on the inside of a glove is a big no-no and should have been noticed either pre-fight or during the fight by good officials. I am going to watch when I can and see if I can spot what you are saying.

 

Plenty of action best fight I've seen for a while.Williams will come again wins the rematch.

 

That show was a joke from top to bottom, when you look at the scorecards they only had Williams up by one point when he was clearly winning by more. The flanagan 120-108 and 118-110 scores were a joke.

 

Please take a look at it. Specifically the slow mo-replay after the fight was stopped, you'll see Williams lunge his head inside of Smith's guard, and when he comes out he blinks and blood starts spurting out, then after that Smith comes in with his head. (which didn't seem to do any further damage, as only the hairs on the top of Smith's head barely touched Williams face if at all, there Williams appears to have instinctually dipped his face down into the top of Smith's head maybe to make it seem like that caused the cut when it fact it had already occurred)

As far as the protrusion on the inside of Smith's glove, it isn't something that would look to be a danger, but possibly something that could have been averted in retrospect. It's basically a white Everlast glove, wrapped in white tape. The tape turned blood red throughout the fight, and by the 9th the tape on Smith gloves looked almost tan or gold in color, really was just light red from the blood, and you could see the difference between the bloody reddish tape and the white glove that protruded out the bottom. The small part of the white glove that was visible wasn't covered by the tape that protruded out, and appeared to cause the cut. This may not have been seen in the pre-fight because it wasn't noticible with the white glove and the white tape. In fact at the beginning of the fight it didn't appear to be even noticible. Perhaps it protruded out more and more as the fight wore on. The inside of Smith's left glove (where Williams was cut) seemed to protrude out from the tape more than the right glove. It didn't look to be a particularly sharp edge or anything, but when you got a guy (Williams) lunging in his with head while you're in a tight guard, with that kind of force, a sweaty closed eye-lid vs the protruding fabric of the edge of glove certainly is capable of causing a cut.

Suffice to say, it was a blood bath, with Smith bleeding above his eye for 6 rounds, but then out of nowhere Williams getting cut badly on the eyelid after he (Williams) out of nowhere literally bull-rushed Smith and headbutted him.

I say bull rushed him because it really was, and it looked intentional, and Williams headbutted Smith with such force that he scraped his eye on the inner part of Smith's glove. (And in the process really landed his forehead on Smith's chin / nose area, which Smith obviously felt) So right after Smith retaliated and did a headbutt of his own, only this one wasn't really aimed at Williams head but rather at his chest, as Williams like dipped his head down when he saw Smith doing the headbutt.

It was a crazy sequence, and you really have to see it to understand what I'm saying. The slo-mo replays are crucial to understanding what happened, as in real time it was very hard to see precisely what happened.

But at the end of the day, it's wrong to blame Smith or act like he headbutted Williams and that's what caused the cut. No, no no. Williams out of nowhere (seemingly out of frustration) Bull Rushed Smith viciously leading with his head (Not that dissimilar to Ortiz on Mayweather) only when he did that he cut his eyelid on the inside of his glove. Then Smith retaliated and got blamed for causing the cut, but that didn't cause the cut, nor did Smith instigate the headbutt. He only headbutted as a reaction to Williams head butt.

As far as it being a no contest, or a stoppage, I think it should have been a stoppage, because first of all, it wasn't something that you could easily catch on a pre-fight inspection. Smith's gloves and tape were all white at the beginning of the fight, it was only noticible based on the situation of him lunging in with the bloody red tape on Smith's gloves that didn't cause the glove to be red, only the tape, after 9 rounds. It's not something that would have been ruled a no contest, or even a Technical Decision, because the cut was not caused by a headbutt. (at least not by head to head contact) The headbutt that caused the cut was initiated by Williams, but the collision with Smith's chin was with the top of his forehead, not his eye, so that didn't appear to cause the eye-lid to open up. The inner fabric of Smith's glove appeared to do that. It would have been completely ridiculous for Williams to win the fight on points because he blatantly headbutted Smith out of nowhere, got himself cut by scrapping it on Smith's glove, when Smith had been bleeding for 6 rounds and was keen to keep fighting.

I thought the stoppage was the correct decision. The word headbutt is generally known to be a collision between two heads. Just because a guy attempted to headbutt someone out of nowhere, and got cut on the guy's glove, shouldn't cause a fight to go to the cards. The spirit of the rule is regarding head to head collision causing a cut to open. That's not what happened here, and the guy that clearly initiated the headbutt got himself cut on the opponents glove.

 

All the Smith brothers have been overrated, including Callum, although clearly he has more talent than the rest. Liam is limited...

 

I read what you said. I don’t think Williams deserved to be well on up the cards. I thought the official judges had it about right. Williams 1 point ahead. (Having him up by 2 or even 3 points was certainly arguable, but not deserving in my estimation)

Having someone well-up on the cards, generally means that a fighter is so far ahead that his opponent has no way of winning without a knockdown or a knockout. So after 9 rounds, that would mean that Williams would have been up by more than 3 points. I felt that if Smith would have won the last 3 rounds, he still could have won a decision. (which was the case on the official judges scorecards)

When you said that a headbutt ended Williams, that sounds to me like Smith headbutted Williams, or that their two heads collided causing a cut. As I pointed out, Williams cut himself when he headbutted Smith and cut his own eyelid on what appeared to be the edge of Smith’s glove. So technically you can say a headbutt ended Williams, but it was his own attempt at a headbutt that did ended it. It wasn’t head to head contact that appeared to cause the cut.

You also said that Smith was a level below Williams, which I disagree with as well. I thought Williams fought a very good fight, and I give him all the credit in the world, but the only way he was able to win those early rounds were by out voluming Smith, which in turn caused him to tire by the middle rounds. He didn’t know how to pace himself, and his performance dropped off after about 4 rounds or so. He said so himself that he started to tire in about the 5th or 6th round, which is typical of a domestic level fighter as opposed to a world level fighter. The fact that this thread is calling Liam Smith a domestic level fighter when he's the former World Title holder, especially after he beats a domestic level fighter who tires after the early rounds, as is typically the case for a domestic level fight, is ridiculous to me, and just seems to be a huge exaggeration and a way to discredit Liam Smith, while ignoring clear facts that point to the contrary.

He basically overwhelmed Smith early, which was very impressive don’t get me wrong, but that’s not an indication that he’s a level above Smith. Smith is a much more seasoned, battled tested, defensively sound inside fighter who doesn’t foul or headbutt nearly as much as Williams is known to. Just because someone throws more punches and wins some early rounds, doesn’t mean they are a level above. Liam Smith weathered the early storm, and started to settle down, get in his groove and started to take control of the fight. When that happened, a tired and desperate Williams started to resort to illegal tactics, like blatant headbutts and that’s not indicative of someone who is a level above someone.

You said Smith was only coming on well in the last two rounds because Williams got tired. Williams said himself he started to tire around the 5th or 6th round. By my count that’s the last “4 or 5 rounds” not the last “two rounds”. I know you don’t rate Smith as highly as I do, but it just seems like you are exaggerating basically giving Smith no credit for what he did which I’m obviously going to disagree with knowing how Smith fights, how he starts slow, his style, his stamina, chin, etc.

That said, I was very impressed with Liam Williams, I knew this would be a tough fight, but I just think you should be giving Smith more credit for how he turned the tide of this fight, which wasn’t easy. His blocking, his tight guard, while seemed excessive early on, as he gave away rounds, was essential to him winning this fight. As Williams “threw himself out”, Smith was poised to take over in the later rounds as he was on his way to doing.

I just want to add Kiwi that I agree with a lot of you’re posts, but we obviously differ greatly on how we rate Smith, so I’m merely just pointing out where I disagree. I’d like to hear your response to these points, like what you thought Smith did well as the fight went on. Certainly you must have been impressed with those quick reflex body shots that Smith landed from the guard. That’s what impresses me the most about Smith, is just how quick he can land bombs to the body like that out of that guard.

I don’t see it as a miscarriage of justice at all. I have no sympathy for someone (Williams) who lands a vicious intentional headbutt out of nowhere because he was getting frustrated (on a guy bleeding profusely from the eye round after round but refuses to quit), then cuts his own eyelid on the way in by scraping it against his opponents glove.

I’m sorry, but that’s not a miscarriage of justice. In fact, to me, that’s sweet justice, as Williams never would have cut his eyelid if he didn’t viciously headbutt like he did Smith out of nowhere. It would be one thing if Smith headbutted him, and caused a cut like that, but as I pointed out, that’s not what happened.

Going to the scorecards after the 4th round has been completed is only if a cut is caused by an accidental headbutt, with the ref having evidence to rule it as such. In this case, the headbutt that occurred seemed to be very intentional, and we know Williams was known for that and the Smith camp made it clear that they were worried about Williams' headbutts before the fight. In retrospect, even if Williams wasn’t cut, that type of an intentional headbutt probably warranted a point deduction which would have evened the fight on the cards anyway. That and that fact that Williams wasn’t cut from a head to head collision, but from a head to glove collision, makes it hard for us to say that the cut was caused by an accidental headbutt.

I think for the ref to make that ruling, he has to clearly see two heads colliding (or head colliding with a part of the face) and it causing a cut. He didn’t see that, so naturally he made the right call that it was not caused by an accidental headbutt. It was caused by an eyelid colliding with the side of a glove, as one guy (Williams) was intentionally bull rushing his opponent with his head.

 

Have you got a chance to watch it yourself? What did you make of it? Do you see what I'm saying about Williams rushing into Smith's gloves and seemingly scraping his eye on it? It's not conclusive, but seems to make the most sense based on the position of the gloves as he rushed in. Regardless, certainly it wasn't caused by the retaliatory headbutt by Smith. Even the commentators observed he was bleeding before that when watching the replay, but they never seemed to pinpoint that it was likely caused by the inside of the Smith's gloves. Do you agree with my assessment of the inside of the glove causing the cut based on what you seen? And in your opinion, do you agree with it being a stoppage, or do you think a no-contest or a Technical Decision would have been more appropriate?

 

This has the making of Widdow Maker vs Radar and grainy stills!

 

Jesus Christmas I've heard it all now

Williams lowered his head into smiths to hide his cut he made from a headbutt.

Smith butted him with the hardest part of his head the top. Surprised it didn't knock him clean out

 

Please watch it again and pay attention to the slow-mo replay. Williams butted Smith with the hardest part of his head the top and in process cut his own eye on Smith's glove. Then Smith retaliated, but Williams absolutely lowered his head into Smiths. On the video this is clearly visable. As to why Williams did it? Not to hide his cut necessarily, I just thought it was sort of instinctual. Williams just loves to headbutt, he realized he cut his eye while trying to headbutt, he just instinctual lowered his head when he saw Smith retaliating.

It sounds ridiculous, but if you watch the slow-mo replay, it's undeniable that that's what happened.