Liam Smith is a domestic level fighter, that was a complete travesty!

Furey · Apr 9, 2017

Williams was impressive and Smith started slow, but let's get it right Williams was tiring and Smith was coming on strong with 3 rounds left.

KiwiMan · Apr 9, 2017

shadow111 said: ↑

I read what you said. I don’t think Williams deserved to be well on up the cards. I thought the official judges had it about right. Williams 1 point ahead. (Having him up by 2 or even 3 points was certainly arguable, but not deserving in my estimation)

Having someone well-up on the cards, generally means that a fighter is so far ahead that his opponent has no way of winning without a knockdown or a knockout. So after 9 rounds, that would mean that Williams would have been up by more than 3 points. I felt that if Smith would have won the last 3 rounds, he still could have won a decision. (which was the case on the official judges scorecards)

When you said that a headbutt ended Williams, that sounds to me like Smith headbutted Williams, or that their two heads collided causing a cut. As I pointed out, Williams cut himself when he headbutted Smith and cut his own eyelid on what appeared to be the edge of Smith’s glove. So technically you can say a headbutt ended Williams, but it was his own attempt at a headbutt that did ended it. It wasn’t head to head contact that appeared to cause the cut.

You also said that Smith was a level below Williams, which I disagree with as well. I thought Williams fought a very good fight, and I give him all the credit in the world, but the only way he was able to win those early rounds were by out voluming Smith, which in turn caused him to tire by the middle rounds. He didn’t know how to pace himself, and his performance dropped off after about 4 rounds or so. He said so himself that he started to tire in about the 5th or 6th round, which is typical of a domestic level fighter as opposed to a world level fighter. The fact that this thread is calling Liam Smith a domestic level fighter when he's the former World Title holder, especially after he beats a domestic level fighter who tires after the early rounds, as is typically the case for a domestic level fight, is ridiculous to me, and just seems to be a huge exaggeration and a way to discredit Liam Smith, while ignoring clear facts that point to the contrary.

He basically overwhelmed Smith early, which was very impressive don’t get me wrong, but that’s not an indication that he’s a level above Smith. Smith is a much more seasoned, battled tested, defensively sound inside fighter who doesn’t foul or headbutt nearly as much as Williams is known to. Just because someone throws more punches and wins some early rounds, doesn’t mean they are a level above. Liam Smith weathered the early storm, and started to settle down, get in his groove and started to take control of the fight. When that happened, a tired and desperate Williams started to resort to illegal tactics, like blatant headbutts and that’s not indicative of someone who is a level above someone.

You said Smith was only coming on well in the last two rounds because Williams got tired. Williams said himself he started to tire around the 5th or 6th round. By my count that’s the last “4 or 5 rounds” not the last “two rounds”. I know you don’t rate Smith as highly as I do, but it just seems like you are exaggerating basically giving Smith no credit for what he did which I’m obviously going to disagree with knowing how Smith fights, how he starts slow, his style, his stamina, chin, etc.

That said, I was very impressed with Liam Williams, I knew this would be a tough fight, but I just think you should be giving Smith more credit for how he turned the tide of this fight, which wasn’t easy. His blocking, his tight guard, while seemed excessive early on, as he gave away rounds, was essential to him winning this fight. As Williams “threw himself out”, Smith was poised to take over in the later rounds as he was on his way to doing.

I just want to add Kiwi that I agree with a lot of you’re posts, but we obviously differ greatly on how we rate Smith, so I’m merely just pointing out where I disagree. I’d like to hear your response to these points, like what you thought Smith did well as the fight went on. Certainly you must have been impressed with those quick reflex body shots that Smith landed from the guard. That’s what impresses me the most about Smith, is just how quick he can land bombs to the body like that out of that guard.

I don’t see it as a miscarriage of justice at all. I have no sympathy for someone (Williams) who lands a vicious intentional headbutt out of nowhere because he was getting frustrated (on a guy bleeding profusely from the eye round after round but refuses to quit), then cuts his own eyelid on the way in by scraping it against his opponents glove.

I’m sorry, but that’s not a miscarriage of justice. In fact, to me, that’s sweet justice, as Williams never would have cut his eyelid if he didn’t viciously headbutt like he did Smith out of nowhere. It would be one thing if Smith headbutted him, and caused a cut like that, but as I pointed out, that’s not what happened.

Going to the scorecards after the 4th round has been completed is only if a cut is caused by an accidental headbutt, with the ref having evidence to rule it as such. In this case, the headbutt that occurred seemed to be very intentional, and we know Williams was known for that and the Smith camp made it clear that they were worried about Williams' headbutts before the fight. In retrospect, even if Williams wasn’t cut, that type of an intentional headbutt probably warranted a point deduction which would have evened the fight on the cards anyway. That and that fact that Williams wasn’t cut from a head to head collision, but from a head to glove collision, makes it hard for us to say that the cut was caused by an accidental headbutt.

I think for the ref to make that ruling, he has to clearly see two heads colliding (or head colliding with a part of the face) and it causing a cut. He didn’t see that, so naturally he made the right call that it was not caused by an accidental headbutt. It was caused by an eyelid colliding with the side of a glove, as one guy (Williams) was intentionally bull rushing his opponent with his head.
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Thanks for going to the trouble of explaining your position in depth. I'll answer in more detail later when I have time to rewatch. Certainly, on first impression I did not think that Williams tried a headbutt. If he intentionally tried to headbutt Smith, then obviously it's his fault and I would agree with the rest of your analysis.

About the scorecards, I thought 3 rounds was correct. Had Smith won the last three rounds and got a decision I would have been ok with that, but 1 round was far too narrow IMHO, and also almost everyone here had it by about 3 rounds. I'll qualify that by saying that I ought to rewatch it, first takes can be deceiving. But I'm far from in the minority on that one at the moment.

Reinhardt · Apr 9, 2017

Smith is probably a C+ plus fighter

Reinhardt · Apr 9, 2017

JoffJoff said: ↑

Williams is a real class act & took the decision to stop the fight like a man. Look forward to his next fight, hopefully it will be a rematch with Smith ending in a lights out KO after 11,12 rounds of tenderising brutality.

Smith is your typical scouse gobshyte who intentionally drove his big, thick, ugly napper straight into Williams dish because he was getting completely outclassed then has the audacity to say he was just about to KO him.

How on earth did this scrub get a title & end up sharing a ring with Canelo?
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Golden boy

yesihavearm2 · Apr 9, 2017

Furey said: ↑

Williams was impressive and Smith started slow, but let's get it right Williams was tiring and Smith was coming on strong with 3 rounds left.
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He came on good in round 9 after losing basically every round before it. He was going to lose and cheated with a headbutt. The guy was outclassed.

yesihavearm2 · Apr 9, 2017

shadow111 said: ↑

I read what you said. I don’t think Williams deserved to be well on up the cards. I thought the official judges had it about right. Williams 1 point ahead. (Having him up by 2 or even 3 points was certainly arguable, but not deserving in my estimation)

Having someone well-up on the cards, generally means that a fighter is so far ahead that his opponent has no way of winning without a knockdown or a knockout. So after 9 rounds, that would mean that Williams would have been up by more than 3 points. I felt that if Smith would have won the last 3 rounds, he still could have won a decision. (which was the case on the official judges scorecards)

When you said that a headbutt ended Williams, that sounds to me like Smith headbutted Williams, or that their two heads collided causing a cut. As I pointed out, Williams cut himself when he headbutted Smith and cut his own eyelid on what appeared to be the edge of Smith’s glove. So technically you can say a headbutt ended Williams, but it was his own attempt at a headbutt that did ended it. It wasn’t head to head contact that appeared to cause the cut.

You also said that Smith was a level below Williams, which I disagree with as well. I thought Williams fought a very good fight, and I give him all the credit in the world, but the only way he was able to win those early rounds were by out voluming Smith, which in turn caused him to tire by the middle rounds. He didn’t know how to pace himself, and his performance dropped off after about 4 rounds or so. He said so himself that he started to tire in about the 5th or 6th round, which is typical of a domestic level fighter as opposed to a world level fighter. The fact that this thread is calling Liam Smith a domestic level fighter when he's the former World Title holder, especially after he beats a domestic level fighter who tires after the early rounds, as is typically the case for a domestic level fight, is ridiculous to me, and just seems to be a huge exaggeration and a way to discredit Liam Smith, while ignoring clear facts that point to the contrary.

He basically overwhelmed Smith early, which was very impressive don’t get me wrong, but that’s not an indication that he’s a level above Smith. Smith is a much more seasoned, battled tested, defensively sound inside fighter who doesn’t foul or headbutt nearly as much as Williams is known to. Just because someone throws more punches and wins some early rounds, doesn’t mean they are a level above. Liam Smith weathered the early storm, and started to settle down, get in his groove and started to take control of the fight. When that happened, a tired and desperate Williams started to resort to illegal tactics, like blatant headbutts and that’s not indicative of someone who is a level above someone.

You said Smith was only coming on well in the last two rounds because Williams got tired. Williams said himself he started to tire around the 5th or 6th round. By my count that’s the last “4 or 5 rounds” not the last “two rounds”. I know you don’t rate Smith as highly as I do, but it just seems like you are exaggerating basically giving Smith no credit for what he did which I’m obviously going to disagree with knowing how Smith fights, how he starts slow, his style, his stamina, chin, etc.

That said, I was very impressed with Liam Williams, I knew this would be a tough fight, but I just think you should be giving Smith more credit for how he turned the tide of this fight, which wasn’t easy. His blocking, his tight guard, while seemed excessive early on, as he gave away rounds, was essential to him winning this fight. As Williams “threw himself out”, Smith was poised to take over in the later rounds as he was on his way to doing.

I just want to add Kiwi that I agree with a lot of you’re posts, but we obviously differ greatly on how we rate Smith, so I’m merely just pointing out where I disagree. I’d like to hear your response to these points, like what you thought Smith did well as the fight went on. Certainly you must have been impressed with those quick reflex body shots that Smith landed from the guard. That’s what impresses me the most about Smith, is just how quick he can land bombs to the body like that out of that guard.

I don’t see it as a miscarriage of justice at all. I have no sympathy for someone (Williams) who lands a vicious intentional headbutt out of nowhere because he was getting frustrated (on a guy bleeding profusely from the eye round after round but refuses to quit), then cuts his own eyelid on the way in by scraping it against his opponents glove.

I’m sorry, but that’s not a miscarriage of justice. In fact, to me, that’s sweet justice, as Williams never would have cut his eyelid if he didn’t viciously headbutt like he did Smith out of nowhere. It would be one thing if Smith headbutted him, and caused a cut like that, but as I pointed out, that’s not what happened.

Going to the scorecards after the 4th round has been completed is only if a cut is caused by an accidental headbutt, with the ref having evidence to rule it as such. In this case, the headbutt that occurred seemed to be very intentional, and we know Williams was known for that and the Smith camp made it clear that they were worried about Williams' headbutts before the fight. In retrospect, even if Williams wasn’t cut, that type of an intentional headbutt probably warranted a point deduction which would have evened the fight on the cards anyway. That and that fact that Williams wasn’t cut from a head to head collision, but from a head to glove collision, makes it hard for us to say that the cut was caused by an accidental headbutt.

I think for the ref to make that ruling, he has to clearly see two heads colliding (or head colliding with a part of the face) and it causing a cut. He didn’t see that, so naturally he made the right call that it was not caused by an accidental headbutt. It was caused by an eyelid colliding with the side of a glove, as one guy (Williams) was intentionally bull rushing his opponent with his head.
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So much wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin.

yesihavearm2 · Apr 9, 2017

shadow111 said: ↑

I read what you said. I don’t think Williams deserved to be well on up the cards. I thought the official judges had it about right. Williams 1 point ahead. (Having him up by 2 or even 3 points was certainly arguable, but not deserving in my estimation)

Having someone well-up on the cards, generally means that a fighter is so far ahead that his opponent has no way of winning without a knockdown or a knockout. So after 9 rounds, that would mean that Williams would have been up by more than 3 points. I felt that if Smith would have won the last 3 rounds, he still could have won a decision. (which was the case on the official judges scorecards)

When you said that a headbutt ended Williams, that sounds to me like Smith headbutted Williams, or that their two heads collided causing a cut. As I pointed out, Williams cut himself when he headbutted Smith and cut his own eyelid on what appeared to be the edge of Smith’s glove. So technically you can say a headbutt ended Williams, but it was his own attempt at a headbutt that did ended it. It wasn’t head to head contact that appeared to cause the cut.

You also said that Smith was a level below Williams, which I disagree with as well. I thought Williams fought a very good fight, and I give him all the credit in the world, but the only way he was able to win those early rounds were by out voluming Smith, which in turn caused him to tire by the middle rounds. He didn’t know how to pace himself, and his performance dropped off after about 4 rounds or so. He said so himself that he started to tire in about the 5th or 6th round, which is typical of a domestic level fighter as opposed to a world level fighter. The fact that this thread is calling Liam Smith a domestic level fighter when he's the former World Title holder, especially after he beats a domestic level fighter who tires after the early rounds, as is typically the case for a domestic level fight, is ridiculous to me, and just seems to be a huge exaggeration and a way to discredit Liam Smith, while ignoring clear facts that point to the contrary.

He basically overwhelmed Smith early, which was very impressive don’t get me wrong, but that’s not an indication that he’s a level above Smith. Smith is a much more seasoned, battled tested, defensively sound inside fighter who doesn’t foul or headbutt nearly as much as Williams is known to. Just because someone throws more punches and wins some early rounds, doesn’t mean they are a level above. Liam Smith weathered the early storm, and started to settle down, get in his groove and started to take control of the fight. When that happened, a tired and desperate Williams started to resort to illegal tactics, like blatant headbutts and that’s not indicative of someone who is a level above someone.

You said Smith was only coming on well in the last two rounds because Williams got tired. Williams said himself he started to tire around the 5th or 6th round. By my count that’s the last “4 or 5 rounds” not the last “two rounds”. I know you don’t rate Smith as highly as I do, but it just seems like you are exaggerating basically giving Smith no credit for what he did which I’m obviously going to disagree with knowing how Smith fights, how he starts slow, his style, his stamina, chin, etc.

That said, I was very impressed with Liam Williams, I knew this would be a tough fight, but I just think you should be giving Smith more credit for how he turned the tide of this fight, which wasn’t easy. His blocking, his tight guard, while seemed excessive early on, as he gave away rounds, was essential to him winning this fight. As Williams “threw himself out”, Smith was poised to take over in the later rounds as he was on his way to doing.

I just want to add Kiwi that I agree with a lot of you’re posts, but we obviously differ greatly on how we rate Smith, so I’m merely just pointing out where I disagree. I’d like to hear your response to these points, like what you thought Smith did well as the fight went on. Certainly you must have been impressed with those quick reflex body shots that Smith landed from the guard. That’s what impresses me the most about Smith, is just how quick he can land bombs to the body like that out of that guard.

I don’t see it as a miscarriage of justice at all. I have no sympathy for someone (Williams) who lands a vicious intentional headbutt out of nowhere because he was getting frustrated (on a guy bleeding profusely from the eye round after round but refuses to quit), then cuts his own eyelid on the way in by scraping it against his opponents glove.

I’m sorry, but that’s not a miscarriage of justice. In fact, to me, that’s sweet justice, as Williams never would have cut his eyelid if he didn’t viciously headbutt like he did Smith out of nowhere. It would be one thing if Smith headbutted him, and caused a cut like that, but as I pointed out, that’s not what happened.

Going to the scorecards after the 4th round has been completed is only if a cut is caused by an accidental headbutt, with the ref having evidence to rule it as such. In this case, the headbutt that occurred seemed to be very intentional, and we know Williams was known for that and the Smith camp made it clear that they were worried about Williams' headbutts before the fight. In retrospect, even if Williams wasn’t cut, that type of an intentional headbutt probably warranted a point deduction which would have evened the fight on the cards anyway. That and that fact that Williams wasn’t cut from a head to head collision, but from a head to glove collision, makes it hard for us to say that the cut was caused by an accidental headbutt.

I think for the ref to make that ruling, he has to clearly see two heads colliding (or head colliding with a part of the face) and it causing a cut. He didn’t see that, so naturally he made the right call that it was not caused by an accidental headbutt. It was caused by an eyelid colliding with the side of a glove, as one guy (Williams) was intentionally bull rushing his opponent with his head.
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Smith got battered from pillar to post last night, lost virtually every round, thoroughly outboxed for long periods, didn't make the weight for the fight and also resorted to cheating with one of the most blatant headbuts I've seen in boxing...

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To top it off he had the audacity to say he was going to win the fight in the last two rounds after cheating his way to a headbutt stoppage?

Two things to take from the fight last night:

1. Liam Williams is clearly a level above Liam Smith as a boxer, a fighter and a person
2. Smith is British level at best

shadow111 · Apr 9, 2017

yesihavearm2 said: ↑

Smith got battered from pillar to post last night, lost virtually every round, thoroughly outboxed for long periods, didn't make the weight for the fight and also resorted to cheating with one of the most blatant headbuts I've seen in boxing...
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You need to watch the full sequence of that in slow-mo replay. Just before that clip you posted, Williams headbutted Smith. Smith then retaliated with a head butt of his own. Your posting a video clip of Smith's headbutt not showing what happened before, which was Williams headbutt. You can see clearly in your clip of the Smith headbutt that Williams was cut and bleeding before the Smith headbutt. That was from Williams headbutting Smith moments before and cutting his eyelid on Smith's glove.

shadow111 · Apr 9, 2017

yesihavearm2 said: ↑

To top it off he had the audacity to say he was going to win the fight in the last two rounds after cheating his way to a headbutt stoppage?

Two things to take from the fight last night:

1. Liam Williams is clearly a level above Liam Smith as a boxer, a fighter and a person
2. Smith is British level at best
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What have you to say about the Williams headbutt which started the sequence of events that led to the stoppage??

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Liam Smith is a domestic level fighter, that was a complete travesty!

Furey EST & REG 2009 Full Member

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