Lineal Rankings System

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boilermaker, Jul 12, 2010.


  1. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I am going to continue the rankings system on from the jack johnson thread in its own thread here.

    Here is a link to the original jack johnson thread.

    This content is protected


    It is probably of no use to anyone, but i am enjoying doing these rankings in spare time, and learning about some of the more obscure fighters.
    After the system looked good, this years system seems to have really gone off track a bit, again, but i am confident it will get back to reasonable, and who knows, maybe it wont be quite so bad as it seems when we compare it with the ring magazine rankings.

    1934
    1 Baer – W Carnera, Levinsky
    2 Carnera – W Loughran, Campolo L Baer
    3 Bob Olin – W Godwin, Rosenbloom
    4 Frank Rowley – W Ketchell & Others
    5 Wesley Ketchell – W Godwin L Rowley
    6 Bob Godwin – W Rosenbloom, Risko & others D Walker X2 L Olin, Ketchell
    7 Natie Brown – W Risko & others D Walker, Neusal
    8 Patsy Perrone - W Risko, Galento
    9 Charlie Retzlaff – W Risko & Others
    10 Johnny Risko – W Loughran L Godwin, Brown, Perrone, Retzlaff, Then retired
    11 Jim Maloney – L Risko, Griffin then Retired
    12 Steve Hamas – W Schmelling, Lasky
    13 Art Lasky – W Leviskey, Ramage, L Hamas
    14 Bob Davey – W Weimer, Chastain
    15 Babe Hunt – W Weimer & others
    16 Dutch Weimer – W Davey Van Noy L Hunt, Davey
    17 Carmen Bath – W Campbell & others
    18 Solly Kriega – W Acosta
    19 Ray Acosta - W Campbell & others L Bather, Kriega
    20 Gus Campbell - W Dunn L Barth, Acosta
    21 Gunn - W Chastain Van Noy L Davey, Campbell, Chastain X2
    22 Lou – Brouillard - W Gainer & Others L Littman
    23 Young Corbett III – W Walker
    24 Paul Pirrone – W Walker & Others
    25 Mickey Walker - Young Corbett III, Paul Pirrone
    26 Maxie Rosenbloom – L Walker, Ramage, Olin
    27 Al Gainer – W Chastain L Brouillard,Rosenbloom
    28 Tait Littman – W Brouillard & Others – L Walker
    29 Clyde Chastain – W Van Noy, Rosenbloom, & others L Gunn, Gainer, Davey
    30 Jack Van Noy – L Chastain, Hankinson, Feary, Dunn, Weimer, Hunt
    31 Max Schmelling – W Neusal L Hamas D Uzcuden
    32 Walter Neusal – W Levinsky, Loughran L Schmelling
    33 Arturo Godoy – W Caratoli D Lougran L Campolo (pre rank)
    34 Jose Caratolli – W Loughran & Others L Godoy
    35 Tommy Loughran – W L Carnera, Neusal,Risko, Carratoli, D Godoy
    36 King Levinskey – W Ramage L Neusel, Lasky, Baer
    37 Jack Sharkey – L No Fights
    38 Jim Braddock – W Griffin, Henry Lewis



    Just when I thought this ranking system was totally hopeless due to the losses to seemingly ordinary fighters by Johnny Risko, a name like Natie Brown pops up. He draws with Walter Neusal and Mickey Walker and I see that next year he fights Joe Louis! Then you have a Patsy Perrone, who is another unknown top 10 fighter who I see will be fighting Joe Louis also next year. Amazingly, it seems like Joe Louis is going to have no trouble beating the top fighters under this ranking system. None of the all time great champions (Louis, Johnson, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries) seem to have had any trouble at all going through the rankings, although Dempsey wasn’t really as dominant as his myth seems to make him. And Steve Hamas is another fighter who was definitely better than he is remembered.
    Young Corbett Deserves a comment. He has snuck into the rankings, despite losing his welterweight World championship in a first round KO. Pretty amazing really.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  2. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1935
    1 Braddock – W Lasky, Baer
    2 Louis – W Perroni, Ramage, Carnera, Levinskey, Baer & Others
    3 Baer – L Braddock, Louis
    4 Carnera – W Neusal & Others L Louis
    5 Charlie Retzlaff- W Lasky & others
    6 Ray Impellitere – W Smith L Loughran, Carnera (pre rank)
    7 Al Ettore- W Smith & Others L Retzlaff, Loughran (pre rank)
    8 Ford Smith – L Retzlaff, Impellitere, Carnera, Ettore
    9 Buddy Baer – W Delaney, Hunt, others L Smith
    10 Al Delaney – W Vorce & Others L B Baer D Loughran
    11 Johnny Vorce – W Weimer & Others L Delaney
    12 Jock McAvoy – W McCoy & Others
    13 Al McCoy - W Gainer, Anderson & Others L McAvoy


    It certainly didn’t take Joe Louis long to move into the rankings. He certainly repped through a good poration of the top 20 even on this list.

    I hat to say it, but Dutch weimer has really thrown out this system from wack. By the 10th loss, he probably should have been artificially erased from the field. ON the face those who beat him are not exactly that great either.

    It is very interesting that Joe Louis has beaten the top 4 fighters and will face the 5th ranked fighter (and knock him out) next year. It is amazing how the champions really flourish under this system. Also interesting is that the number 7 ranked fighter will meet Jersey Joe Walcott next year. And he will knock him out!
    I have cut the rankings very short this year, because the fighters that are winning were simply losing too many fights. I think that we have pretty reasonable top 10 though.
     
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Max Schmeling would take a big **** on Johnny Vorce and Ford Smith. Schmeling should be top 3.
     
  4. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think so too, but then again, I would have thought hed done the same with Steve Hamas. How do you think Steve Hamas would have done against Schmelling?

    And by the way another thing i noticed. It is interesting that the big Superheavyweights were very prominent. Impellitere, Buddy Baer, Carnera and Max Baer. That is 4 of the top 10. Is it really possible for so many of these guys to compete at this level, if they were really as unskilled as many people say?

    Like the ring ratings, these are ranking system based on who you beat (not how good you look in getting your results). Obviously Schmelling would rank highly if that was the case.
     
  5. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    And one quick question Suzy,

    How do you think Ettore would have went against Jersey Joe Walcott?

    Because i think i will tip with the rankings system.
    :good
     
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Walcott was in no way shape or form physically fit to fight in the 1930s..He had no training, barely a sandwhich in his stomach, often took fights on 24 hr notice, and had typhoid fever for part of the decade. He got by on a lot of natural talent, and beat some good fighters like Lorenzo Pack, Willie Reddish, and boxed Abe Simon's ears off for 5 rounds...but he should not have been granted a boxing liscense. He was not a fighter in the 1930s, he was a full time factory worker who had a family of 6 to feed. Fighting was something he did on the side to put bread on the table.

    I have a fight report on Al Ettore-Jersey Joe Walcott.


    Philadelphia Evening Ledger :

    WALCOTT STOPPED BY ETTORE'S BODY ATTACK IN EIGHTH


    Al Ettore is resting on the laurels of his sixth straight victory today
    A relentless right-hand body smashing attack turned what started out to be a tough battle for the West Philadelphian into an eight-round knockout against Jersey Joe Walcott, Merchantville, who came into neighborhood reknown with a raft of knockout victories, at the Camden Convention Hall last night.

    Three thousand fans paying more than $2,500. went into a frenzy as Walcott virtually punched Ettore off his feet in the opening of the scheduled ten heats. However, Albie rushed in close thereafter and pummeled Walcott so viciously that the Negro was ready to quit in the fifth.

    Walcott then gave everything he had in the sixth, the only other frame in which he showed to advantage by staggering Ettore with a right uppercut and again with a left hook. Then Ettore's body bombardment again had Jersey Joe flinching in the seventh.

    Walcott backed against the ropes after 1 minute and 8 seconds of the eighth, going down against the ropes under a right to the pit of the stomach. He almost rolled out of the ring while Referee Jim Manley counted "ten."

    Thanks Chuck Hasson
     
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  7. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Thanks for that rport. You are of course correct when you talk about Walcotts status at the time. But i think it is more than that. With regards to 99% of the fighters, you can see, as i trace the years, that fighters will start off struggling with fighters ranked around the 30s (under my system) and then over the years improve and move on to higher calliber fighters, usually making their way into the top 10 (when they are good enough). Jack Johnson did it, Langford did it, Harry Greb did it, Miske did it, Loughlin did it, and so did most others. People nowadays underestimate the importance of fighting the fighters at your own level on a regular basis and learning from this. I think that Walcott improved, as he naturally would. Early in his career, he lost to a some good fighters and as he got better, he stopped losing to this caliber of fighter and turned it up a notch. I think the lack of experience is as much to blame as his condition.
     
  8. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1936

    1 Braddock – No Fights
    2 Schmelling – W Louis
    3 Louis – W Retzlaff, Sharkey, Ettore & Others - L Schmelling
    4 Baer – W Bearcat Wright, Weimer & others
    5 Al Ettore – W Haynes, Walcott L Louis D Godoy
    6 Jack Trammell – W Haynes & others
    7 Leroy Haynes - W Carnera, Brown L Ettore, Trammel
    8 Carnera – W Gastanaga L Ettore,
    9 Charlie Retzlaff- L Joe Louis, then retired
    10 Sonny Boy Walker – W Savold & others L Ramers, Lasky (Pre Rank), Loughran
    11 Tommy Loughran - Farr, Smith, McCoy (Pre Rank) Sonny Boy Walker,
    12 Bob Pastor – Impelliteri & Others
    13 Ray Impellitere – L Loughran, Pastor then retired
    14 Phil Brubaker – W levinsky & others L Sharkey, Impellitere (pre rank)
    15 Lee Savold – W Smith & others L Brubaker

    Joe Lous’s win over Al Ettore is interesting. I wonder if We would have seen Walcott Louis early, if Walcott had beaten Ettore? There is a few conflicting stories (boxrec and CBZ) about possible Baer losses. Due to the conflict, he is going undefeated.

    Another Superheavyweight in 6ft 6 in Jack Tramell joins the top 10. That must be roughly half of the top 13 fighters.
     
  9. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1937

    1 Joe Louis – W Braddock, Farr, Ketchell & others
    2 Braddock – L Louis
    3 Schmelling – Thomas
    4 Tommy Farr – W Baer, Neusal & others L Louis
    5 Max Baer – L Farr, W Ford
    6 John Henry Lewis – W Ettore, Risko & Others L Gastanago
    7 Isidoro Gastinago – w Roberti, Lewis L Lewis
    8 Tony Galento – W Etore, Haynes & others L Godoy (pre rank)
    9 Al Ettore – W Lewis L Lewis & Galento
    10 Nathan Mann – W Blunt, Godoy, Pastor
    11 Gunner Barlund – W Lovell L mann
    12 Alberto Santiago Lovell – W Rosenbloom, Burman & Others L Barlund
    13 Red Burman W Blunt & others L Lovell
    14 Eddie Blunt – W Trammell & Others L Mann, burman, lovell
    15 Al Gainer – W Fox & others L Blunt
    16 Tiger Jack Fox – W Tramell, Walcott, Dudas L Gainer

    It is interesting that after failing to crack the top 15 with Al ettore, Jersey Joe had another go, this time against Tiger Jack Fox but again, Jersey Joe failed. As SuzyQ says, I don’t think that Jersey Joe is yet at the level we would eventually see him become.

    Joe Louis has pretty much cleaned out the division, even by now, and is left only with rematches as decently marketable fights. I can see why Schmelling got the return bout.
     
  10. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1938

    1 Joe Louis – W Mann, Thamos, Schmelling
    2 Braddock – W Farr then Retired
    3 Schmelling – W Foord, Dudas L Louis
    4 Max Baer – Farr, Hankinson
    5 Rosenbloom – W Nova & Others D Pastor
    6 Lou Nova – W Barlund L Rosenbloom D Ramage, Pastor
    7 Tommy Farr – L Braddock, Baer, Nova
    8 John Henry Lewis – W Ray & Others
    9 Willie Reddish – W Toles& Others L Fox (Pre Rank)
    10 Roscoe Toles – W Barlund, Gastinago & others L Reddish
    11 Tiger Jack Fox – W Gastinago, Gainer, Reddish & Others
    12 Isidoro Gastinago – w L Toles, Fox
    13 Tony Galento – W Mann, Daniels & Others
    14 Gus Dorazio - W Pastor, mignalut & others L Ettore (pre rank)
    15 Bob Pastor – W Ramage & Others D Rosenbloom, Nova L Dorazio
    16 Jimmy Adamick - W Brown & Others L Lewis, Toles

    Louis beats even more top 10 fighters with his win over 10th placed Nathan Mann. I think he has beaten in his career now all of last years top 10 except Gastinago and most of the top 15 too. Tommy Farr has lost confidence and form, losing three fights (all to Louis victims somewhere along the line). It looks like this set up a 5 v 6 clash with Baer v Nova.
    Good to see old **** daniels the contender from the early 30s try to recrack the top 20, but he was no match for Tony Galento.
     
  11. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1939

    1 Joe Louis – W Lewis,Roper, Galento, Pastor
    2 Schmelling – W Foord, Dudas L Louis
    3 Tony Galento – W Nova L Louis
    4 Lou Nova – W Baer L Galento
    5 Max Baer – W Murphy, Richie L Nova
    6 Rosenbloom – W Ettore then Retired
    7 Tommy Farr – W Burman, Gains L Burman
    8 Red Burman – W Farr & Others L Farr
    9 John Henry Lewis – L Joe Louis then Retired
    10 Eddie Blunt – W Reddish & Others
    11 Abe Simon – W Reddish & others L Franklin (pre rank)
    12 Willie Reddish – W Howell & others L Blunt & Simon
    13 Bob Pastor – W Toles & others L Louis
    14 Roscoe Toles – W Perroni & others L Pastor
    15 Billy Conn – W Lesnevich & others
    16 Melio Bettiner – W Fox & Others L Conn
    17 Nathan Mann – Lasky, Gainer, Dudas & Others L McCoy
    18 Al McCoy W Mann & others L Mann
    19 Gus Lesnevich – W Clark, Olin & Others L Conn
    20 Henry Cooper – W Knox & others L Bettina, Mann Barlund & Others pre rank
    21 Brian Knox - W McCoy, Clark & Others L Cooper
    22 Clarck – W Gainer, Fox & Others L Lesnevich, Knox
    23 Ken Overlin – W Brown & Others L Yarosz (pre rank)
    24 Ben Brown – W Yarosz & Others L Overlin D Overlin
    25 Teddy Yarosz W overlin, Moore, Gainer L Brown
    26 Gainer – L Mann, Clark, Yarosz
    27 Tiger Jack Fox – W Simms & Others L Bettiner, Gainer
    28 Isidoro Gastinago – w Valdez then retired.


    Full Credit to the Cinderalla man for retiring up the top of the rankings. Shmelling also stepped down while at the top, although he would come back. Maxie Rosenbloom must have also been due a shot but he elected to retire when top 10 too. You cant blame him, as with everyone else, the guys who beat Maxie were blasted out early by Louis. I think he is clearly as dominant as Johnson and Jeffries were under this system, and much more so than Dempsey. John Henry Lewis is another who would retire at the top after this year. It is almost as if Louis was so dominant that they all just decided they had enough. I cant even guess how many people in the top 26 who weigh over the heavyweight limit, were not kod by Joe Louis.

    It is interesting to see Archie Moores name crop up, although he lost his shot at the number 24 ranked contender. It is also interesting that despite the top 10 becoming true heavyweights mostly 200lb plus, the middleweights still force their way into the top 30 and so do the light heavyweights.
     
  12. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1940

    1 Joe Louis – W Godoy, Paycheck, McCoy
    2 Max Baer – W Galento, Comiskey
    3 Tony Galento – L Baer
    4 Lou Nova – W Erjavec
    5 Tommy Farr – W Nicholas then retired
    6 Red Burman – W Dudas & others
    7 Abe Simon – W Blunt, Barlund, toles & others
    8 Rosco Toles – W Trammell L Simon
    9 Buddy Walker W Trammell & Others
    10 Jack Trammell – W Blunt & Others L Toles, Walker
    11 Lem Franklin – W Blunt & others
    12 Eddie Blunt – W L Simon, Trammell, Franklin
    13 Willie Reddish – W Simon & others L Franklin
    14 Billy Conn - W Lesnevich, Pastor, McCoy & others
    15 Bob Pastor – W Eagle L Conn

    Billy Conn mightn’t have cracked the top 10 yet, but he did put on a huge cleanout at just below that level. I stopped at 15, as this is where the middleweights and light heavyweights seem to get involved.
     
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Willie Reddish seemed to come up a lot in your lists, but Jersey Joe beat him?
     
  14. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1941

    1 Joe Louis – Burman, Simon, Buddy Baer & others
    2 Lou Nova – W Commiskey, Baer L nova
    3 Max Baer – L Nova, then retired
    4 Tony Galento – No Fights
    5 Melio Bettina – W Bivins & others
    6 Bob Pastor – W Beckwith, Turkey Thompson & Others
    7 Booker Beckwith – W Burman & Others L Pastor
    8 Joey Maxim W Burman & Others
    9 Red Burman – W Hart & others L Louis, Bettina, Beckwith, Maxim
    10 Jim Thompson – W Abe Simon then Retired
    11 Lem Franklin – W Bivins, Sheppard, Simon
    12 Abe Simon – L Jim Thompson Louis, Franklin D Turkey Thompson
    13 Gus Dorazio – L Louis, Walker W Walker & Others
    14 Buddy Walker W Toles L Burman, Dorazio,
    15 Rosco Toles – W Trammell, L Simon, Walker
    16 Jack Trammell – L Bob Smith then Retired

    Like a broken record, the Louis clean sweep is phenomenal. It has blown away Johnsons, and Jeffries and it will be very interesting to see how Marciano and Ali compares to it, if I get that far. By the way, have I suggested that the top 10 must be pretty close to the rings records (not that I know what they are).

    Joey Maxim has a stunning top 10 debut in just his 11th fight!

    There certainly doesn’t seem to be any legs to the Joe Louis ducked black fighters theory yet. Interesting to note that Lous victim Lem Franklin, Abe Simon and Bob Pastor seem to have asserted superiority over Jimmy Bivins, Turkey Thompson and Curtis Hatchetman Sheppard. No doubt they will all improve though
     
  15. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Its because when Jersey Joe beat him, Reddish was ranked lower down the list. Reddish lost to Walcott, but then beat higher ranked fighters than Walcott so he jumped him. IN todays terms, look at what happened to Wlad he lost to purity but then outranked him by beating other good fighters. There are plenty of other examples. Usually the lists get thrown out when a high ranked fighter either loses form totally and starts losing several fights to lesser fighters, or when a heavyweight is upset by smaller fighter and we start to see middleweights ranked. But over time, the cream usually rises to the top.

    I think this type of rankings system would be actually very successful, if it was the only rankings used and if it was known that this was how rankings were done.
     


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